Is the necessity of dilation a myth?

15
u/sg2k19
Mon Jan 27 17:40:12 2020 UTC
(57 comments)

I'm ten months post-op from Chettawut and generally have been dilating about four times per week. Chett's instructions say I should be dilating 21 times per week at this point, but obviously no one follows this. It's generally very easy and not at all painful.

I recently had buttock augmentation surgery and didn't dilate for a week afterwards, the longest I've ever gone. My first dilation after that week was as easy as ever, which makes me question whether I'm wasting my time dilating even as much as I've been.

I read an article recently from an elderly trans woman debunking the "open wound" myth. She's a widow and celibate and said she dilates once a year just out of curiosity. I have friends who are two decades post-op and one, a lesbian who I highly doubt is having PIV sex, told me she dilates about once a month.

Basically, I'm coming to the conclusion that -- contrary to the directions of every surgeon I've ever heard of -- we don't need to dilate for the rest of our lives. It seems to me to be only necessary while healing after surgery so the internal scar tissue doesn't contract. Theoretically this could take a year or more, but it could also be fully healed in six months or so.

Thoughts?

all 57 comments



34
u/HiddenStill
Mon Jan 27 18:14:10 2020 UTC
(0 children)

There’s a lot of variation in what different individuals need. I think you just got lucky. Plus chetts dilation schedule is ridiculous. I’m not sure anyone sticks to it.

Long term I’ve heard of women go years without dilating and still be able to recover depth.

u/[deleted]
Mon Jan 27 20:34:42 2020 UTC
(11 children)

[deleted]

2
Mon Jan 27 23:52:43 2020 UTC
(10 children)

20 years? That’s amazing! You were a trailblazer. Was it very different back then?

13
Tue Jan 28 01:07:21 2020 UTC
(7 children)

Yep she had to bite down on a stick whilst the apothecary set to with a rusty saw and a stake. You know 20 years ago was the millennium, right?

Tue Jan 28 03:09:34 2020 UTC
*
(2 children)

[deleted]

2
Tue Jan 28 13:58:09 2020 UTC
(0 children)

Reddit ages mature human beings at an insufferable rate lol

1
Fri Jan 31 06:05:35 2020 UTC
(0 children)

I have an 18 year old daughter. Talk about something that'll make you feel old!

3
Tue Jan 28 01:25:20 2020 UTC
(0 children)

Lmao!!

1
Tue Jan 28 03:28:06 2020 UTC
(1 child)

No shit but it was still a long time ago especially in terms of trans visibility. It wouldn’t have been covered by any insurance. Most of the doctors doing surgery now haven’t been doing it for 20 years. The media still treated trans women very much as a “man in a dress” and a punchline.

Tue Jan 28 07:09:40 2020 UTC
(1 child)

[deleted]

7
u/Faelynn_s
Tue Jan 28 04:00:54 2020 UTC
(1 child)

You're looking for an excuse to do less dilation, go for it. It's your body and your choice. My best friend has kelloid scarring and she lost a significant amount of depth for skipping what you'd consider "unreasonable" dilation. Only fact I'm sure of is that every single body is different and heals different. Maybe you're one of the lucky ones that heals faster or better, congratulations. Doctors still need to recommend the bottom common denominator followup treatment to avoid leaving out the trans women who aren't that lucky. So. Your body, your choice, only you know your body and whether you're okay with cutting back or not on the schedule.

1
u/sg2k19
OP
Tue Jan 28 04:40:03 2020 UTC
(0 children)

Maybe you're one of the lucky ones that heals faster or better, congratulations.

You're not "healing" forever because it's not a wound. I'm not claiming dilation is unnecessary immediately post-op.

u/[deleted]
Mon Jan 27 18:37:08 2020 UTC
(9 children)

[deleted]

22
Mon Jan 27 19:01:43 2020 UTC
(3 children)

This. So much this. Surgeons are conservative. They KNOW that with a dilation schedule like the one they provide, you shouldn't lose depth/girth. They're also aware that many women won't NEED to dilate that much. But, to cover all their bases, what should they recommend?

-6
u/sg2k19
OP
Mon Jan 27 19:34:52 2020 UTC
(2 children)

Except they don't do follow-ups beyond a certain time frame. They claim you need to dilate for life without having examined anywhere near a significant number of their patients even a year post-op, let alone a decade.

11
Mon Jan 27 20:15:54 2020 UTC
(1 child)

And, in the absence of evidence that, after X amount of time, dilation is no longer necessary, the safe approach is to recommend dilation.

-9
u/sg2k19
OP
Mon Jan 27 21:30:19 2020 UTC
(0 children)

The burden of proof is on those recommending the treatment, not on everyone else to disprove its necessity. Without evidence that neovaginas close up in the absence of dilation, there can be no evidence that dilation prevents them closing. Correlation does not equal causation.

-9
u/sg2k19
OP
Mon Jan 27 18:40:58 2020 UTC
(4 children)

My point is that I don't think it will close up at all if you stop dilating forever. Obviously it's unclear how long post-op this is the case, but one year should be safe.

7
Mon Jan 27 20:28:57 2020 UTC
(3 children)

one year should be safe

You haven't a single data point to back this up, do you? One single non-anonymous data point?

1
u/sg2k19
OP
Mon Jan 27 20:33:42 2020 UTC
(1 child)

The one year scar healing timeline is based on numerous studies. Some do conclude two years, which is what Chettawut's dilation schedule is based on.

https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ACYBGNQM9yKgeaJgbeSt0ZyvtCfaaQGFqw:1580157043071&q=scar+contracture+time

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4055805/ "Surgical scar care should be continued for one year."

1
Fri Jan 31 06:08:46 2020 UTC
(0 children)

Except you're completely forgetting about the pelvic floor muscles, which dilation absolutely has an effect on in bodies that were not born with a vaginal canal. Dilating serves several functions.

6
u/scarletmagi
Tue Jan 28 07:10:20 2020 UTC
(0 children)

This is a complicated subject and question. There are a few reasons dilation is recommended, the most important of which are:

  • Prevention of stricture, which can lead to stenosis (think of this as prevention of tissue contraction while healing early on)
  • Relaxing and training the muscles around the canal
  • Possible long-term prevention of stenosis via unspecified means

The first is without question true. Every formal study of neo vagina based techniques that examines tissue contraction has determined that a dilation is highly effective in preventing it. Although the degree it occurs varies with technique and graft type.

The second is also without question true but is more of a comfort thing. Though there is some evidence that this is somehow related to stenosis early on, and conjecture of it being related later on. Either way once you are a few years post op, this isn't really that big of an issue. Like yes if you didn't dilate or be penetrated for a while it could hurt or be uncomfortable, but I sincerely doubt you'd lose depth over this.

We have no concrete data on this third point. At least not in sufficient abundance to draw any sort of conclusions or even educated speculation. I think this is why most surgeons go with a "see how your body responds" mentality for this stage. (If someone had a study saying contrary, I'd love to read it?) With as much change as has happened in trans healthcare but especially mtf gcs in the last two decades, I wouldn't hold my breath for a study that will be applicable (to you) and well researched examining this.

I know for me personally, once dilation is firmly at the 1/week mark, I don't spending the 30 minutes per week to make sure I keep depth. It's honestly not that big of a worry especially when penetrative sex counts, which I enjoy very much.

3
u/hrt_breaker
Mon Jan 27 20:49:54 2020 UTC
(2 children)

Same reason some people can go weeks without earrings and don't lose their piercing, and others can't go a day. Even after years of having the piercing in 24/7, still closes.

Considering we can't see the inside of our ear any better than we can the inside of our vagina, sticking something in those holes occasionally to be sure we're not one of the closing types seems like an ok price to pay to not have to redo it.

21x a week is pretty crazy. It would be a good reason for me personally to consider a different doctor, or maybe push the limit of what I actually have to do. But if one day I lost a mm, I'm upping my frequency.

I don't think you can pick a length of time, and say ok, at this point it's unnecessary, stop, and have everyone keep their depth. So it's very understandable why a Dr would say to do it for life.

If someone chooses to explore their own body at some risk they accept, I understand. I wouldn't understand that person telling other people it's safe. People are too different to be so bold.

-1
u/sg2k19
OP
Mon Jan 27 20:54:22 2020 UTC
(1 child)

Except ear piercings don't close up after a short period of time. I've gone over a decade without wearing earrings and mine are still open. This is common...

15
Mon Jan 27 20:59:32 2020 UTC
(0 children)

My sister in law had hers for twelve and it closed over a weekend. That's what I'm trying to say. What works for you, or even 99% of people (if true) doesn't make it safe.

11
u/hrt_breaker
Mon Jan 27 20:02:21 2020 UTC
(24 children)

Ask all the women who failed to dilate and now have to go back in for a revision.

You need to dilate to be sure depth is maintained. A few exceptions or a week without isn't proof of anything.

I never understood why Thai surgeons recommend so much. You'd be at 1-2x a week with my surgeon iirc

Mon Jan 27 21:39:17 2020 UTC
(4 children)

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3
Mon Jan 27 21:41:00 2020 UTC
(3 children)

She might be right that not all neo vaginas need to dilate for life. But if I lost 1.5" bc I was hoping to be like that, I'd be really disappointed with myself.

Especially since my post year schedule would be 1x a week.

Mon Jan 27 21:51:24 2020 UTC
(2 children)

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1
Mon Jan 27 21:54:36 2020 UTC
(1 child)

I want to be done too. Still, 6 is pretty good, at least you have that

1
u/sg2k19
OP
Mon Jan 27 20:13:19 2020 UTC
(18 children)

I've never met anyone who needed a revision due to losing depth yet know numerous women who've dilated once a month or less for years and are fine.

The difference is the surgeons see the patients who lose depth and never see the far greater number of their patients who also didn't dilate yet retained depth.

Wrt to Thai surgeons, with non-inversion method there are more internal scars.

16
Mon Jan 27 20:16:20 2020 UTC
(10 children)

Ok, I've met a few who have lost depth. And this wasn't over the course of years, but months.

You can try out what you want with your body, but it's not right to try and debunk sound medical advice. That's like anti-vaxxer territory.

-6
u/sg2k19
OP
Mon Jan 27 20:27:08 2020 UTC
(9 children)

The safety and efficacy of vaccines is supported by evidence. That's why everyone criticizes anti-vaxxers; not because they're contradicting advice from their doctors.

The notion that neovaginas lose depth in the absence of dilation is not supported by any scientific evidence whatsoever. It would be apt for me to compare your advocacy of a baseless superstition to being an anti-vaxxer, if I wanted to be an alarmist jerk that is.

16
Mon Jan 27 20:31:28 2020 UTC
(8 children)

K. Don't dilate. Tell the whole community not to bc there's no evidence for it. Whatever makes you happy.

Me, I'm going to trust my surgeon who's seen hundreds of patients and count that as a solid knowledge base. Including the ones they had to redo bc of not dilating.

It's good to challenge conventional thinking, but if you're just going to ignore evidence that contradicts your view, are you improving anything?

-9
u/sg2k19
OP
Mon Jan 27 20:35:17 2020 UTC
(7 children)

There. Is. No. Evidence. On. This.

Your surgeon has not seen hundreds of their patients a decade post-op.

11
Mon Jan 27 20:40:21 2020 UTC
(6 children)

I'm really confused here.

I don't represent a dilation union or lobby. I told you about the few post op friends I knew who lost some or all depth after failing to dilate. I told you that in good faith. These people exist.

So I'm confused why that doesn't count as evidence to you? Did they lose depth from magic? From a keto diet?

And why would my surgeon have to wait a decade to see a closed up neo vag after a patient admits to not dilating properly? It seems fairly certain what's going on.

I don't know how you explain these cases other than failing to dilate can cause a loss of depth. Regardless if it always happens or not.

-1
u/sg2k19
OP
Mon Jan 27 20:51:41 2020 UTC
(5 children)

I'm not saying it's impossible to lose depth due to not dilating frequently. I'm saying the mere fact that it's possible does not mean it's a necessary process or even a common occurrence.

You have surgeons that perform several thousand vaginoplasties and then a dozen patients need a revision due to losing depth. If one assumes the >99% of patients who haven't lost depth are frequently dilating for the rest of their lives then it would be fair to conclude neovaginas close up without dilation. However, given the number of patients who report not dilating frequently this is not a safe assumption. It seems much more likely, as others have commented here, that the patients who lost depth healed abnormally and that was what made them need to dilate frequently. Does that make sense?

9
Mon Jan 27 20:58:13 2020 UTC
(4 children)

The claim makes sense, although I wouldn't agree with it. If it's possible at all to lose depth from not dilating, even at 1% odds I'm sticking it in and watching Grey's Anatomy.

And if it's dependent on things healing properly, and we're talking about deep inside, how would I know if I got lucky or not?

You might see this all as a small, manageable risk. But I also brush my teeth every night and check my smoke detectors twice a year. I don't think not doing those things saves me much time, but the risk of a cavity or house fire is a big deal.

-5
u/sg2k19
OP
Mon Jan 27 21:23:44 2020 UTC
(3 children)

You still don't seem to understand the concept of causation. I've tried explaining this the best I can and in multiple ways. I wish you the best.

child comments hidden
Mon Jan 27 21:40:25 2020 UTC
(6 children)

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2
Tue Jan 28 01:52:34 2020 UTC
(0 children)

Colon vaginolplasty is standard. It’s a serious surgery rather than a minor revision. It’s in the wiki.

1
u/sg2k19
OP
Mon Jan 27 21:55:54 2020 UTC
(4 children)

Yes, this procedure exists. The fact that it's so extremely rare should be telling.

Mon Jan 27 22:03:43 2020 UTC
(3 children)

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1
u/sg2k19
OP
Mon Jan 27 22:08:27 2020 UTC
(2 children)

I don't think it generally requires the construction of a new vaginal canal. Bowers does it and has info on her website.

Tue Jan 28 22:26:29 2020 UTC
(1 child)

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1
u/sg2k19
OP
Wed Jan 29 03:09:53 2020 UTC
(0 children)

So bowers add inches of depth with peritoneum?

I did not indicate that.

Here's her page on it, clearly listed under the procedures she performs: https://marcibowers.com/transfem/revision/vaginal-deepening/

Note that correction of stenosis does not require any tissue grafts.

7
u/jlynne58
Mon Jan 27 18:11:44 2020 UTC
*
(0 children)

I have the same experience as you. In fact, if I don't dilate for a week I get less "pain" and better depth. I really feel like if you healed well and properly that the whole dilation thing is less critical. Some people scar badly with a ton of contraction so I can't speak to that. I healed quickly with almost no issues and negligible bleeding so I'm guessing that aided me as well?

3
u/[deleted]
Mon Jan 27 23:34:57 2020 UTC
*
(0 children)

It’s not a myth. That said chettawat recommends way more than needed. I had surgery with suporn and followed his advice for the first year. I’ve found that cutting dilation down to 1/week has been super doable after the first year.

But this varies by person for sure. If you cut back, experiment with what works for your body and make sure it works for you first. Don’t just do it!

4
u/stealthyliving
Mon Jan 27 17:57:34 2020 UTC
(3 children)

Are you engaging in regular PIV sex?

1
u/sg2k19
OP
Mon Jan 27 18:06:49 2020 UTC
(2 children)

Nope

2
Mon Jan 27 20:02:41 2020 UTC
(1 child)

The reason I ask this is because I think this is ultimately the deciding factor re. regularity of dilation.

I have gone months without dilating, however, have maintained depth as a result of regular penetrative sex. In fact, what I now choose to do is dilate once a week, the morning after a ‘big night’ in order to capitalise on the rigour of PIV.

1
u/sg2k19
OP
Mon Jan 27 20:21:03 2020 UTC
(0 children)

It's a good question, whether sexual activity is tainting the anecdotal evidence I'm leaning on. I pulled up the article I was referring to and it's a bit unclear: https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2019/04/woman-just-shattered-one-biggest-myths-transgender-womens-bodies/

She refers to "atrophy" yet also says she's fine when she dilates yearly. My guess is she doesn't lose depth, but it would take some effort to regain girth. This isn't actually "atrophy". She's comparing it to what cis women experience during menopause. On a related note, I do use vaginal estradiol cream and it definitely helps with elasticity, although I don't think what's going on is the same process as vaginal atrophy.

3
u/femme_inside
Mon Jan 27 20:50:38 2020 UTC
(0 children)

I am 9 (almost 10) months since having surgery with Chett. I am dilating about once every other day now and my depth is still at 6". Hell I just skipped two days in a row over the weekend, dilated no problem today. However, I am not using dilator #4 out of a personal choice since my sexual preference is women and I have no interest in PIV sex.

4
u/misscolinsxx
Mon Jan 27 20:05:09 2020 UTC
(1 child)

I had SRS with Chettawut back in 2017 and I barely even dilate now. I might dilate once or twice a month plus I'm having frequent sex.

3
Mon Jan 27 21:35:16 2020 UTC
(0 children)

Frequent sex is supposed to be a pseudo substitute, right?

2
u/FlipflopFantasy
Mon Jan 27 18:51:16 2020 UTC
(0 children)

No