Opinions on Dr. Keojampa and FACIALTEAM

20
u/GLTCprincess
Sat May 16 22:08:55 2020 UTC
(49 comments)

Hello wonderfuls!

I’m working on picking my FFS surgeon and sorta have it narrowed down to Dr. Keojampa in Los Angeles, CA, USA and Dr. Simon from the FACIALTEAM in Madrid, Spain. Each seems to have their pros and cons and wanted to reach out to the group and anyone who has been to either for your opinion on the process, results, interactions... Any data I may not have would be terribly useful! Or if there is another Dr. I should be looking at and missed, please let me know! For me it’s a bit about price, but this is my face — I want it to be great .

Here’s what I’ve sorta come up with.

Dr. Keojampa: * This option is local for me (I’m in Southern California) so no travel expenses. Also means I get to heal at home, which is nice. Then again, I enjoy traveling, so... dunno. * He seems to target what I’ll call female+... Just not feminizing the face but also sorta taking it like 1 step further. So it doesn’t look like a lot of work was done, but it is more than an average female face. * It sounds like he uses a traditional hairline advancement and then hair transplants to cover the scar. * Pricing it tricky. I can’t get even a rough idea of range out of the front desk. If I try and use insurance they won’t quote it out to me until I opt to not use insurance and pay out of pocket. They also won’t work to help get what I need for insurance, so it is 100% on me. I’m not super impressed with this process, and if the rest of the interactions are like this, I’m not sure I would be happy.

Dr. Simon of FACIALTEAM: * This would require I fly from the US West Coast to Madrid, Spain. That’s fine, but adds time and cost. * He seems to target a very natural female face. Not really looking at cheek fillers or anything like that. Keep it simple but effective. * I sorta like the idea of how they do an incision further back on the head and a hair transplant at the same time as the FFS. Prevents there from being a scar up near the front of the hairline, which seems pretty awesome. But it also means I’ll likely need to go back for a 2nd hair transplant. * The front desk staff is far, far, far better than Dr. Keojampa’s. An absolute delight to work with. But there is also a 0% chance of insurance here, so that whole mess wasn’t even on the table, not exactly an equal/fair comparison . At least I had a price next day!

If you or someone you know has gone to either surgeon I would love to know if the data I have gathered above rings true and what your experiences were. What did you love? What did you hate? What would you do again? What to avoid? Any data is invaluable and THANK YOU!

✨Jami

all 49 comments


10
u/Pollyfall
Sat May 16 22:32:57 2020 UTC
(1 child)

I’ve had FFS with FACIALTEAM and highly recommend them. Super-pros all the way. And they do go for a very natural look, maybe even erring on the side of “less is more.” If you’re looking for dramatic results, look elsewhere. But if a natural approach is what you’re after, you can’t do any better. My two cents.

1
OP
Sun May 17 00:11:29 2020 UTC
(0 children)

If you had to do it all over again, would you still pick FACIALTEAM without hesitation? If I may ask, what is your favorite thing they did? And how about least favorite?

9
u/helloPrism
Sat May 16 22:55:34 2020 UTC
*
(10 children)

I consulted with FT, Deschamps-Braly and Keojampa before deciding on Keojampa.

Insurance for me isn't an option regardless, so that's not a factor. Pricing wise DB and Keojampa are similarly priced, but both quoted about 1.5x what FT did.

The hairline incision Keojampa uses is right on the hairline and from the pics I've seen is mostly invisible even without transplants.

For me, the choice came down to my biggest source of dysphoria: my fairly receeded hairline. Keojampa is doing a 5cm advancement with transplants only to fill in the areas above the temples. FT suggested transplants only. The # required to fill everything in would've been pretty massive and likely wouldn't have looked anywhere near natural.

I was scheduled for surgery last month, but was postposted due to covid.

6
OP
Sat May 16 23:53:32 2020 UTC
(9 children)

When you do get in I would love to hear what you think. Process prior to surgery, communications from the team, surgery itself, results... all of it (well, as much as you’re comfortable with.) I think Dr. Keojampa would be a slam dunk for me if it wasn’t for their staff that has been interacting with me re: insurance. They are beyond useless, IMO and a huge turnoff.

1
Sun May 17 04:19:54 2020 UTC
(4 children)

I'm sorry to hear you're having a hard time getting their help with utilizing your insurance. :( I know u/ Beekatiebee said she was able to utilize her Starbucks company insurance to great effect there. It sounded like the only delays were related to Starbucks, not Dr. Keojampa's office. I'm having forehead contouring and hairline feminization there myself in October.

3
OP
Sun May 17 04:40:28 2020 UTC
(3 children)

Yeah, alas I’m not at Starbucks so I need to use Blue Shield of California. They are pretty awful with regards to transgender surgeries bordering on what I think may be illegal. At this point I’m realizing it will take less time and may actually be cheaper to just pay out of pocket.

1
Sun May 17 20:57:37 2020 UTC
(2 children)

Actually what I meant was that I do know of some cases where Keojampa's office worked very well with insurance providers--but maybe you mean Blue Shield is themselves difficult enough to work with, so in turn that is giving Keojampa's team a harder time to reconcile with. I have BCBS too, but it requires one to be on hormones for 2 years before they assist with surgery costs, and I have not been. Has Blue Shield helped with anything for you? Do they cover your HRT, or if you've had it, hair removal? Thanks! :)

2
OP
Sun May 17 21:00:44 2020 UTC
(1 child)

I mean Blue Shield is absolutely terrible to work with. But Dr. Keojampa’s admin office has thus far been equally as bad. Maybe just my experience, but the admin office over there has been completely useless.

3
Mon May 18 10:09:36 2020 UTC
(0 children)

I’ve had a similar experience (actually with a different state’s blue cross insurance lol), ended up switching surgeons over it. After I agreed to pay up front they basically stopped talking to me, which was very confusing. ... ended up going forwards with another one and am just doing final checks now.

1
Wed May 20 06:44:34 2020 UTC
(3 children)

I’m having the exact same issues with the staff. It’s making me consider going to a completely different surgeon.

1
OP
Wed May 20 14:25:29 2020 UTC
(2 children)

Yeah... I was locked in to Dr. Keojampa until I had to work with the staff. Unlocked and looking around again.

1
Wed Sep 9 03:52:20 2020 UTC
(1 child)

Any suggestions on how to keep insurance paperwork in order?

1
OP
Wed Sep 9 10:30:07 2020 UTC
(0 children)

Blue Shield has denied near every one of my claims. So I’ve opted to pay out of pocket as to ensure I’m not slowing down due to Blue Shield of California. So I’m probably the wrong person to ask ;)

An update on the thread though. Keojampa finally did get me a quote. It was reasonable but higher than the others. Would have likely eaten the cost if it wasn’t for their front desk. Instead ended up with Dr. Rolfes in Minnesota. Very similar style to Keojampa, but about 1/2 the price. Have not heard anything bad out of his office yet. Seemingly a bit of a diamond in the rough. Shall see in October!

8
u/Federal-Tension
Sun May 17 01:10:28 2020 UTC
(2 children)

Have you heard of Bryan Rolfes? His reviews on Realself are all 5 stars and Mila Camari went to him and recorded her journey on Youtube. He seems super friendly, has good bedside manners and explains the procedures super thoroughly. To date he has very satisfied customers and zero botched cases. He seems to have a good eye for aesthetics and does not take risks that could give complications. He's quite handsome too! Others are Deschamp Braly, Harrison Lee and Madirossian. FT is good too and genuinely cares about the safety of the patient. Avoid Bart Van de Ven he botched me and there seems to be 2 recent patients of his going cross eyed.

1
OP
Sun May 17 03:49:51 2020 UTC
(1 child)

I had not heard of Dr. Bryan Rolfes, but he hails from Minnesota which is where I am originally from! Would allow me to visit my family for a bit while I’m out there, thank you for the suggestion! I’ll dig deeper here!

Sorry to hear about your botched procedure. Hoping someone was able to help fix it?

✨Jami

1
Sun May 17 08:13:08 2020 UTC
(0 children)

No problem happy to help. I would have gone to him if I was in the US. We don't really have many options here in Europe other than local PS or FT. My botched surgery was on the jaw and chin so if I get a fix it may have to be implants. It's hard, sometimes I just want it all to end.

6
u/Scones_for_Bones
Sun May 17 02:42:17 2020 UTC
(3 children)

I had ffs with facial team, and while I think my face looks good, I had a lot of complications that I think we're largely caused by carelessness. I know they have a sterling reputation here and that's probably deserved, but if I had to do it again I wouldn't go with them.

They botched my trach shave and as a result I lost about 1/3 of my range on the upper side. Additionally stitches came undone on my head the first night which resulted in heavy bleeding for about a day and a half before a doctor finally decided to show up and address it. The language barrier with the nursing staff was definitely an issue with me post op.

I was also surprised to find out that they operate on 2 people at once. I guess they switch back and forth between operating rooms so each person can do they're specialty but it also makes me wonder what would have been different if I was the only patient they were working on at the time.

I think I'm in the minority here though. The other girls who has surgery at the same time as me all seemed to fair just fine. But from others stories I've read on here, it sounds like we went to 2 different places.

Idk anything about keojampa though, so really it's up to what you think is best.

2
OP
Sun May 17 03:46:24 2020 UTC
(1 child)

I was not aware that they did 2 people at once and the language barrier is another interesting concept I had not considered! Thank you, these are exactly the data points that will help me make my decision!

✨Jami

2
Sun May 17 15:59:38 2020 UTC
(0 children)

I believe it is because they have two teams of surgeons, hence the team thing. I believe their surgeons also specialize in different things so they swap between patients during as they surgery progresses. Its very different to elsewhere.

On the plus side you get surgeons who are more specialized and hopefully better, and probably not as tired as its not a single surgeon working long hours. I guess they get breaks. On the minus you're not really sure who's doing the work. On the other hand they have a good reputation, so the team thing seems to work.

I can see how it can work out better, but it would need really good management of the organization to pull it off. Which I think they have.

2
Sun May 17 17:14:37 2020 UTC
*
(0 children)

We need to hear more of stories like this for transparency but also safety!

4
u/MyNewTransAccount
Sun May 17 01:03:53 2020 UTC
(0 children)

I consulted with both for my revisions. I didn't care for what Facial Team had to offer. My consult with them lasted about 20 minutes vs 80 minutes with Dr. Keojampa.

I personally find that a lot of FTs outcomes are quite conservative. Dr. Keojampa has achieved rockstar status in FFS. His waiting list is nearly a year long.

That said, both are very solid choices that offer somewhat different approaches to FFS. It's worth consulting with both.

2
u/Full-Jello
Sun May 17 04:30:08 2020 UTC
*
(14 children)

I'm having this exact same problem. I NEED to look 100% AFAB after surgery, and while my experience with Facial Team has been much more amicable like you said, and they're much more responsive and it's way less of a hassle to get a quote (I never actually got a full quote from Keojampa), I feel like I'd be getting the "second-best" with them. Keojampa's results just seem like a little bit of a "step above" anyone else's, and that might mean crossing the thin line between "passing" and "passing as AFAB".

At this point it keeps me up at night. Keojampa's waitlist is too long now for me to really feel comfortable waiting that long, with Facial Team I could probably get it all done at the end of this year and for less. But would it satisfy me? I need to look beautiful, I need to be able to look in the mirror and see myself for the first time, and above all I need to look AFAB.

It's really really stressful. I don't want to have to wait a year or more but I might have to.

7
Mon May 18 00:57:23 2020 UTC
(7 children)

‘Look AFAB’ is such a subjective and largely unrealistic goal that I’d caution you against setting this as your target. It will likely only lead to negative emotional outcomes.

5
Mon May 18 09:43:55 2020 UTC
(6 children)

It's not really subjective but I understand it's unrealistic. I just feel like nothing else will satisfy me personally, since I've been through 10 years of this since I was in high school, and nothing has ever gotten better since then, and I just need this to be over so I can finally move on and start the recovery process.

8
Mon May 18 09:52:20 2020 UTC
*
(5 children)

It is 100% subjective since I can tell you there are some cis women that I know who are objectively much more masculine than me, and yet, well, they are AFAB. But on average even though I pass I am unquestionably more masculine than most of my cis female friends. My bones are just not as delicate.

The ‘look AFAB’ line has to be drawn somewhere and it’s imperfect because there’s always outliers in human appearance (think Caster Semenya). And due to dysphoria when I see most trans women draw this line it invariably is drawn a bit too close to the ‘petite, slender, tiny, beautiful’ idea that the media portrays women with, which for 99.9% of trans women is completely unrealistic. Heck, even a body like Caster Semenya’s is completely unrealistic for many trans women.

And hence, yeah, my statement stands. ‘Looking AFAB’ is something that is subjective and largely unrealistic. Pick a more grounded line or you’ll end up bitter.

3
Mon May 18 15:36:11 2020 UTC
(4 children)

In this context I was mostly referring to my face. AFAB facial features are very distinctive as compared to AMAB features, which is why many trans women are still clockable as AMAB even after FFS, and it's almost impossible to mistake someone who's AFAB for someone who's AMAB (unless they have had a very successful FtM transition), which is why it's very hard for example to pass in pictures next to cis women. No matter how conventionally "beautiful" you are, if someone asks "which one of these women is trans?" you can almost always be clocked in pictures next to even the most masculine-presenting AFABs because of the clearly AFAB facial features as opposed to yours.

So yeah I know it's unrealistic but otherwise I'll just be living a life where I am always afraid and anxious whenever I go outside, having to constantly mirror check, never being able to take pictures or post pictures online, never feeling comfortable around cis women, etc. And I just don't want to live that life anymore.

3
Mon May 18 15:57:08 2020 UTC
(3 children)

This is exactly what I mean. I’m talking about bodies, e.g. sexual dimorphism. There’s features of the face, like the upper jaw, general head size, long face and more pedantic/obsessive stuff like intercanthal distance blah blah that FFS just can’t fix. And if you’re going in with this attitude of ‘AFAB face’ trust me you’re in for a rude awakening. It’s facial feminisation, not afab-facemaker.

This isn’t to say that there aren’t FFS results that aren’t downright amazing (I’ve met many), but for instance my face is still that tiny bit bigger than (most) women my size, my cheekbones that tiny bit stronger, my eyes slightly smaller, my face length that tiny bit longer.

Does it mean I get clocked? Nah. Does it mean people ‘can tell’ in pictures? Also nah, the differences are too tiny, and as far as trans women go my body tends to lean towards the more petite/feminine side of the AMAB spectrum.

Does it mean my face ‘looks AFAB’? Highly subjective and I betcha different people would have their own (biased) answers, which might change based on input (like being told I’m trans). Hell, my own answer would change depending on my mood.

FFS did do wonders to my quality of life. No more fringe. I don’t hate photos of me anymore. I’m more confident. I’m not telling you not to get it, but I am telling you to temper your expectations.

But you’ll go through it one day and you’ll see what I mean, so I’ll bow out from this thread.

1
Mon May 18 16:50:59 2020 UTC
(2 children)

> Does it mean I get clocked? Nah. Does it mean people ‘can tell’ in pictures? Also nah, the differences are too tiny,

Idk about this. I looked through some of your posts trying to find out your surgeon and maybe some before/after pictures, sorry, but I found a terrifying post where you talk about how you've known stealth and/or early transitioners who confided to you that even they sometimes get clocked. That's what I can't deal with, I'm just not living that life. If I get clocked or misgendered once after FFS it is over for me lol

That's why I want to be sure I'm getting the best care, I obviously can't because Keo's waitlist is too long now, but I'm hopeful that if I give very clear instructions to Facial Team, then they can give me results that are just as good as the best results I've seen from them. If not, then I am screwed, but I have to at least try.

4
Mon May 18 17:07:20 2020 UTC
(1 child)

“how you've known stealth and/or early transitioners who confided to you that even they sometimes get clocked. That's what I can't deal with, I'm just not living that life. If I get clocked or misgendered once after FFS it is over for me lol”

This is exactly at the root of what I’m trying to help you understand. I’ve been there and I get it and it’s such a nasty place for your mental health but take it from experience FFS will do nothing to help you here.

The fact that we as transgender people experience transphobia has nothing to do with how AFAB we look and everything with the fact that transphobia just exists, and no matter what as a transgender person you’ll experience it, in one way or another. Passing is indeed a great aid in moving around the world whilst being shielded from the worst discrimination but there comes a point where you start getting diminishing returns over the amount of mental energy you spend on passing. It’s OK to care about passing, stealth, and all that, but to some degree you need to let it go, because you are trans and you can’t escape from that.

And so when passing turns into an obsession, into an irrational fear, you probably need to tackle the obsession rather than chase some impossible goal of cisgenderness that as a trans person by your very nature you can’t meet. Your existence is that of a trans woman, and, well, you can’t change that. So you need to learn to live with it.

My 2c from someone who’s been there. Take it or leave it. (Now I’ll really bow out of this dang thread bye)

2
Fri Jan 27 05:03:20 2023 UTC
*
(0 children)

Hmmmmm. Spoken like someone who passes all the time.

I don't come even slightly close to passing after a total of 2 years of HRT. Never will. I am almost never correctly gendered. It is extremely rare and only by good people trying to be nice. Even good friends who try really hard slip up all the time - because its just too hard for their brains to reconcile she/her with the masculine features they see before them.

To say its fucking draining is a monumental understatement. All day, every day of my entire life for the rest of my life. Constant looks, stares, "sir"s when I am clearly presenting as feminine as possible. Just being treated "different". I would kill to just blend in. To not still feel like a complete fraud. To just be able to use the bathroom without people muttering under their breath as they walk past.

I get what you are trying to say and to an extent you have valid points. And you absolutely have your heart in the right place. Transphobia exists independently of passing. But at least you get a break from it and from yourself. And its not even every now and then - its most of the time. I'm sorry, but despite your years in transition you have had the benefit of every advantage. You simply have no fucking idea what it is like for those of us not as lucky as you. I doubt you can even imagine it. There is nothing irrational about feeling the need to pass. I do and its not to please everyone else. It is as much my own loathing of my body as it is enduring the consequences of others' judgement. The unending hopelessness of knowing you will never ever be yourself, or experience the happiness that was only a dream when you were young, but which is available to everyone else today.

I can maybe take the "just accept your transness" shit from people who know my suffering, but getting it from early transitioners who have everything that I was denied and have the luxury of choosing to be out when it suits them is just too much to handle.

My 2c from someone who has been there, is still there and will never be able to not be there.

1
OP
Sun May 17 04:32:12 2020 UTC
(5 children)

I actually never checked... How long is Keojampa’s wait list?

3
Sun May 17 04:36:40 2020 UTC
(4 children)

I think it's about a year for his SF clinic and more like 2 years for his LA clinic, but it might be the other way around I don't remember, but I think I'm right. When I consulted with him last August it was around 6 months but as word got out that he was a "rock star" surgeon covered by magic Sbucks insurance it ballooned to 2 years lmao

2
Sun May 17 15:26:49 2020 UTC
(3 children)

It’s even more due to covid rescheduling, I was told August/Sept 2021 for SF a week ago.

1
Sun May 17 17:17:46 2020 UTC
(2 children)

Yeah I definitely need to go to Facial Team then. I may have serious post-surgery depression because of it, especially knowing I could have gotten better results if I had just worked at Starbucks, but it's my only option now.

2
Sun May 17 17:35:38 2020 UTC
(1 child)

I’m struggling with that also. It might be worth checking out Dr. Mardirossian in Florida! He and Keojampa both trained under Spiegel and have very similar approaches, but Mardirossian quoted me pretty much the same price as Facial Team and had openings as soon as late fall of this year. I also consulted with FT and was unimpressed but am deciding between K and M, leaning towards waiting for Dr. K tho :/

1
Mon May 18 09:42:52 2020 UTC
(0 children)

Honestly most "top surgeons" like FT, Mardirossian, Rolfes, DB, Harrison Lee, 2pass, etc etc, they all look kind of basically the same level of uncanny to me, at that point you aren't really getting drastically different results, there are just stylistic differences like DB and Lee possibly taking you more into the uncanny zone than others because that's what they go for, or Bart giving you the sameface or botching you if you're unlucky. Otherwise it all seems to be a very similar technique and level of quality, just differing aesthetics and levels of safety.

Keojampa is the only one that kind of seems like he's a step above, but even then I have seen results that aren't meaningfully different from what you might see from FT or the others, and I have seen FT results or even results from Bart that blew me away, and I've seen Keojampa results that underwhelmed me compared to the others, so who even knows. It's more like he's just more consistent and slightly more perfectionist in his method, but I'm sure those differences can be mitigated by being VERY clear with your surgeon about what you want, regardless of who it is.

1
u/gargoyleprincess12
Mon May 18 14:23:25 2020 UTC
(0 children)

A lot of facialteam foreheads are too round. Good but like. Too perfect

1
u/[deleted]
Wed May 20 23:52:48 2020 UTC
(3 children)

If insurance is paying for it, I don't see why not Keo.

You gotta factor in the pricing of flying to Spain, alongside accommodation into it all.

2
OP
Thu May 21 00:06:27 2020 UTC
(2 children)

Dr. Keojampas office won’t actually work with your insurance company... you have to do all of the leg work yourself, which is fine. But Blue Shield of California requires pictures from the provider explaining why the surgery is necessary and Dr. Keojampas office won’t even send that. You’re completely on your own and if your insurance pushes back at all, they will offer zero assistance, support or documentation.

So insurance may cover it. Dunno though cause I can’t get the data I need to send the insurance company from Dr. Keojampas office... hence this thread ;)

1
Thu May 21 00:08:52 2020 UTC
(1 child)

Yikes!

1
OP
Thu May 21 00:12:52 2020 UTC
(0 children)

Exactly. If they had offered at least a little bit of help, sending over the pictures for example, and insurance denied it still... would totally have gone out of pocket and just ate the cost.

But the fact that they do nothing... Do not care at all , well, it was a huge turn off for me. It is my face and I want it done well. But I also want to send my money in places I think actually care about their patients. But it’s still my face... so... here I am asking the Internet. Ha!

1
u/Fisguard
Wed May 27 02:48:57 2020 UTC
(5 children)

Late to the party here, but someone did a writeup on how they got insurance to cover FFS with Facial Team. I can shoot you the PDF if you'd like.

1
OP
Wed May 27 02:51:42 2020 UTC
(0 children)

Yeah, if you don't mind, that would be amazing! DM here or [ jami@tmro.tv ](mailto: jami@tmro.tv ) if you like too. And THANK YOU!

1
u/IPBri
Fri Jun 5 21:27:17 2020 UTC
(1 child)

Do you have that online somewhere?

1
Fri Jun 5 23:03:24 2020 UTC
(0 children)

I'll pm you

1
Thu Jul 23 17:09:15 2020 UTC
(0 children)

I'm also interested please 🙏

1
Fri Sep 25 06:33:06 2020 UTC
(0 children)

could you send that to me as well?

u/[deleted]
Sat May 16 22:14:24 2020 UTC
*
(3 children)

[deleted]

10
Sat May 16 22:38:52 2020 UTC
(1 child)

Dr Spiegel used to be highly regarded, but newer reviews are mixed at best, with a fair amount of botched surgeries from his appretencies actually performing the surgery.

3
OP
Sat May 16 22:15:27 2020 UTC
(0 children)

Very true. And I should reach out. I believe Dr. Keojampa studied under him too.