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Whether if he produces good results or not matter so much less when he is known to send patients to his students to operate on without the patient's consent. That should be more than enough reason to stay away. But if you don't mind going to his establisbed and talented students, you may want to give Bryan Rolfes a look.
I would not recommend going to him, maybe back in the day, but not now.
Edit with a lot more detail:
I recently had VFS and a lip lift
From the consultations, the pre-op and post-op paperwork, I now fully understand all of the negative stories that I have heard about Dr. Spiegel's office. The overall process was very informal. From start to finish if I didn't ask a question it wouldn't have been talked about. It is way too easy to not get the information you need and end up with something you don't want. And what you get done wont be precisely what is best for you. Given how long his office has been around and the way he responded to questions about improving their process ("no, we are fine") I doubt this will change. The same attitude he had around guessing my Lip Lift distance or where the sutures go in my vocal cords really makes me wonder how much better both my results would have been if I had gone anywhere else. I suspect that the same lack of attention to detail as I saw out of the operating room is what I would find in the operating room. For those reasons I honestly can't recommend Dr. Spiegel to anyone for anything, not even a consultation.
On insurance for FFS I had BCBSMA and went to Facial Team. No one is "in network" for FFS so I could go anywhere and put in for reimbursement which I did and got most of it back.
And worth mentioning someone at Dr. Spiegel's office (who has been there a long time) said I had the best FFS result they have ever seen. This was before I told them I didn't go to Dr. Spiegel. So my average results from Facial Team is better than anything Dr. Spiegel can do.
What makes him a bad surgeon? He has done great work on all the celebrities he has operated on, and most of the Spiegel patients I have met. That said, my personal experience with Spiegel patients might not be representative?
Personal experience? You directly talked to patients?
I have no opinion on him personally as I've never met him, but I think I can summarize the negative views into a coherent story.
What makes him a bad surgeon?
He is, or was, a good FFS surgeon. He still does FFS, but also has a significant business teaching FFS to other surgeons, and presumably make quite a bit of money from that. When you have surgery with him he might do the work, or it might be someone he's teaching, hence the highly variable results and stories of botched surgeries. He doesn't make this clear and most patients are not aware of it. There's some risk to his reputation doing this, but on the other hand he basically gets paid twice for each surgery. Nice work if you can get it and don't care about ethical issues.
He has done great work on all the celebrities he has operated on
That's what you would expect if you ran that kind of business.
and most of the Spiegel patients I have met
That can also be true, but is the risk significantly higher than with other surgeons? Would you still choose him if the above was correct?
I've no idea if this is correct or not, but if you have surgery with him I think it would be prudent to get it in writing that he performs the surgery personally with no assistance from other surgeons. And read very carefully every document you sign.
I have not seen anything to indicate that his complication rates are significantly higher than those of other surgeons. I have seen a handful of people that have complained about bad results, and some of them seem to be quite obsessed with tearing him down. I have seen people claim that students operate on patients, but I have seen no corroborating evidence that support these claims. Having a fellow in the operation theater during surgery does not mean that the fellow operated on you. Spiegel denies that fellows operate on patients, and the notion that both his fellows and Spiegel himself are lying to people faces seems kinda absurd to me personally. At the end of the day I find it fascinating that there is so much for Spiegel, when highly rated surgeons like Keojampa and Mardirossian describes him as the best ffs surgeon in the world.
I'm only answering your original question, you don't need to defend him to me. I've never met him, not going to him, and don't care about him any more than any other surgeon.
I have seen people claim that students operate on patients, but I have seen no corroborating evidence that support these claims.
I'm pretty sure he teaches, and I assume they don't just stand there watching. What would be the point of that? If I remember correctly someone has said they got hold of an after surgery report and it was done by the student surgeon - who knows if its true or not, but then may as well give up on researching like this if we just ignore everything.
Unless a surgeon is truly terrible its hard to get an idea of their complication rates, however I think he has more complaints than Facial Team or Deschamps-Braly for example. Just an impression and I could be wrong - I'm not interested enough to go count the numbers.
Personally I don't trust what any surgeon says. They are just people at the end of the day, and apparently its one of the professions with the highest number of psychopaths.
I assume you have seen this, but just in case
I am not trying to stick my neck out for Spiegel. I do however find it a little bit fascinating that most Spiegel patients I talk to in private are happy with their experience and results, but in online trans spaces a lot of people that have never met Dr. Spiegel have very strong opinions on him, often based on rumors or uncorroborated stories. It makes it very difficult to know what to believe and who to trust.
The guidelines that regulate interactions between residency surgeons and patients, tend to be rather strict. It's very unlikely that a residency surgeon would operate in place of a private surgeon without the patient having consented or been informed on some level. I have read the review from the person with the surgical report, but those reports only state who was present in the surgical theater, and anything more is merely speculation. I would love to hear more about this though, because if it is found to be true, it is certainly unethical and deeply troubling.
I agree that you should not blindly trust surgeons. I think we as a community need to avoid falling into the gossip game trap, where what was originally stated by a patient gets passed between multiple people and ends up coming out as something else entirely. That doesn't help anyone who are out looking for genuine advice and unbiased educated opinions.
This bit puzzles me
Spiegel denies that fellows operate on patients
I don’t think there’s any questions he teaches. I don’t understand how he can teach without his students working on the patients themselves, but I’m not a surgeon so maybe I’m missing something.
If his students provided their own patients it would explain things, but I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone say they have experienced this.
There is no doubt that resident plastic surgeons are operating on someone, but it is most likely on patients that have given informed consent. It's not uncommon for resident surgeons to take part in surgeries under the close supervision of a certified surgeon, but that is generally in general or reconstructive surgery, not in expensive private practices. Had it been true that Spiegel is allowing surgeons to operate on patients without their knowledge, he would be taken to court or been under investigation of a medical board a long time ago.
This is the precisely the subject of the complaints people are making.
Have you signed or seen the documents you will be required to sign? Does it say who will be performing the surgery clearly and unambiguously? How many people even read these things properly.
he would be taken to court or been under investigation of a medical board a long time ago
Perhaps, but its amazing what some surgeons are getting away with.
Obviously I don't know the truth of all this, but its why I suggested this
I think it would be prudent to get it in writing that he performs the surgery personally with no assistance from other surgeons. And read very carefully every document you sign.
No harm in doing it.
I could be wrong... but I feel like with some of these FFS surgeons (esp. the legacy ones), they become somewhat complacent because they've essentially achieved celebrity status. You can see this in the high prices they charge, relative to other surgeons of similar experience.
I went to Spiegel for FFS. His office staff are generally annoying to deal with, but they did me a major solid by moving up my surgery date when I thought I was losing insurance coverage.
I’m not 100% thrilled, but I’m happy with my results (edit: I doubt anyone is 100% thrilled, no matter who they go to, or their results). I know 3 others who have been to him. Definitely an improvement for each. One is excellent. When I look in the mirror, I usually see ‘girl.’ Especially with a little mascara and brows filled in. I’ve hardly worn more makeup than that in a long time, but I used to before FFS.
I’ve heard the thing about his students doing the work, not sure I believe it. I asked and he said he’d be doing everything, so that would be a major ethics violation if it turned out to be true. I would think he’d lose his license. But honestly I don’t know how that whole system works for sure.
I am scheduled for surgery with him in about a month. I genuinely like the pictures on his website, and those I have seen personally. The negative things I have heard about him is that he let's student's operate on you without consent and that he is too minimalistic and conservative. I don't need aggressive work so I am not overly worried about the latter. As for the students working on you, I have not seen any corroborating evidence of this. I will ask for a written statement guaranteeing that it is him who operates on me either way.
I do to some extent have a feeling that his negative reputation is a product of a couple of bad reviews that get blown out of proportion by people in these surgery communities. They act as if he is quite literally worse than every other surgeon out there, which is strange considering Keojampa and Mardirossian, who they argue are so much better, describe Spiegel as the best and most experienced FFS surgeon. Not sure what to think honestly.
Totally agree! And about being conservative, I’d err on the conservative side of things rather than ending up looking like you’ve obviously had plastic surgery. But obviously different people have different situations and different goals/expectations.
Don’t forget that it’s going to take quite a while to see the final results. It’s especially important to remember that so you don’t feel depressed for making the wrong choice with a surgeon who a lot of people are telling you is too conservative, when it’s really just normal swelling.
Anyway, hope it goes well for you!
I am in medical school, and as someone that is going into a conservative profession where you meet people from every corner of society, it's important that I look natural due to the unfortunate prejudice that exists against plastic surgery. I don't like the looks from surgeons like Lee, where it it obvious that you have had work done.
You think I am making a good choice going to Spiegel? That I should just ignore the noise from these online surgery communities?
I took a quick look at the Wiki here and the latest posted negative info looks like it’s basically copy/paste of the negative info I saw before my surgery in 2018. It looks to me like the same experience posted under different accounts. So I don’t know if someone had a legit bad experience or they just have some kind of vendetta. All I can say is I’m happy with my results as are 3 out of 3 friends who had FFS with him.
Awesome! Thank you so much!
Being an old timer. Bitd it was Dr. O; then dr. Z; then Speigel. Now Keojampa and DB are in vogue. FFS surgeons seem to have a “hot” shelf life for a few years and then people say they are no good. Dr. Speigel seems to be a competent, if conservative doctor.
Have you looked in the wiki here?
No.
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