Hello I’ve been looking recently at shoulder width reduction surgery videos, though the difference I see in the patients are minimal but quite enough to be considered feminine, I was just wondering if anyone has any more knowledge on this? From what the surgeon said, apparently the surgery just rolls the shoulders forward rather than actually shortening them, unless I misunderstood? Can anyone give me some information?
Shoulder width reduction actually reducing?
You can see results from another gal who posted here two years ago:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Transgender_Surgeries/comments/dxpkbb/i_had_shoulder_width_reduction_with_dr_eppley_a/
And you can read about clavicle shortening from another person who had it done here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MtF/comments/9attd5/i_had_clavicle_shorteningshoulder_narrowing/
Your understanding is correct though, the shoulders aren't actually less wide but slightly rolled forward, which can create a better look from the front, but its arguable if you look better from behind and the side.
Personally I don't have time to recover from a surgery like this and I just don't care for the rolled forward look. So its a hard pass for me. But some people who've had the surgery do like their results.
What if you trained to roll them back through contracting the muscles that are attached to your shoulder blades? As far as I know the only thing keeping your shoulders at a fixed distance from each other are your clavicles, so yes shortening them should actually change the width of the shoulders once the patient has regained a normal posture.
That's a very good question which I have not seen an answer to per the surgeries. The women who have had the surgeries generally report a slight rolled forward look after recovery. I'm sure as you imply you could learn to push your shoulders back to mitigate the look some.
Functionally at a skeletal muscular level I'm not sure how comfortable this would be or functional. What may happen is you could train your shoulders to be pushed back by default with a lower visible width than before, but you would likely find it less comfortable and your range of motion at this point is somewhat lower lower, and you only maintain full motion when your shoulders roll forward again.
Its a very good question that is probably hard to articulate. I imagine though that most peoples comfortable neutral point is with their shoulders slightly forward after the surgery.
I don’t have the rolled back or rolled forward looking and zero functional issues and I did the surgery in 2023. Had my plate removal last month. I’m delighted with the results!
Looking at a photo of a skeleton it seems to depend, the clavicles seem to make a bit of a different as to the bones at the back ( don’t know the name), all in all it seems like it’s also the a actual thoracic cage part of the body, when I’m surprise they haven’t tried to reduce yet.
Maybe if they also did reduction of the shoulder bones on the back it would reverse the rolled forward look? Makes sense to me. Just wondering why this hasn’t been pitched yet.
Because no one cares about innovating to help people like us. So many surgical techniques have been out for decades and are just now being used for trans patients (like PPV). It’s kind of gross how practitioners give zero shits about innovating to help trans patients (or at least have only just started).
Shoulder reduction is the most innovative thing we have now, but it’s still pretty new and kind of “underground” in a way. Advancements in scar healing would immensely help as certain procedures surrounding neck muscle resection, rib reductions of the mid rib cage, etc. are not worth doing because of the tradeoff of scaring.
I was actually doing some research and the reason we are making such slow process with things also like stem cells is because of evangelicals barring the progress, because its taken from embryos.
I wouldn’t lose all hope yet! The fact we have Will Power’s, and other doctors that care, even in Korea, there are people willing to help, we just need more of a push in general for funding towards science, that means not allowing christians to block research and funding.
Easier said than done, but I’d rather die fighting for the right to live comfortably than die accepting the current circumstances. (My attempt at giving you some hope lol)
hurry cow numerous dinosaurs act chubby chop rotten trees sheet
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
That's exciting to hear! Is there more information on this anywhere?
berserk toothbrush relieved smile sort aspiring soft friendly head resolute
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
Sorry to revive this thread, but it's not just a matter of no one wanting to innovate. Please look at the pictures below. You will notice there are multiple layers of muscles covering the posterior shoulder. The layers run in different directions. Reducing the size of the bones on the back of the shoulder would be very invasive. It would require a large incision. The muscles would have to be moved aside and/or dissected (cut) and then sutured back together. The recovery would be long and painful. It would likely have to be done one side at a time so you could care for yourself with the unaffected arm after surgery. You may even need physical therapy to restore muscle function.
And non to mention, no one knows the effect this would have on long-term shoulder stability and function. The clavicle is relatively easy to access and there's no significant muscles to be concerned with. Surgeons have to consider what is safe and practical when deciding to "innovate." There's limits to what can be done based on human anatomy.
https://images.app.goo.gl/jivbetmU9BaNk7vU7
Regarding PPT, I think it's a great innovation (this procedure is actually very old, but only recently offered to transwomen) and it's great to have choices, but the jury is still out on whether it's the preferable procedure. We simply don't have long-term data. There's also not any head-to-head trials comparing PPT to PIV.
It wouldn’t make sense that you remove literal bone only for it to not physically change their size. It’s not like it magically grows back to its original length after the patient is sewn shut again.
The result may have a more scrunched look, and if that’s not your thing, that’s great, but from a numbers standpoint, your shoulders are smaller.
Its not that simple. Your shoulders size and width are determined by a number of different bones, ligaments, tendons and muscles. The mass and size of all of those around your shoulders will determine the total size.
This is why transgender women will often see a size drop some when the muscles shrink in mass.
But the collection of bones do not change in size and most importantly the ribcage is not smaller and the shoulder blade isn't smaller. So removing part of the clavicle doesn't reduce the size of any of these other parts, and specifically the shoulder blade still has to rotate around the ribcage, both of which are the same size still.
So reducing the clavicle reduces the rotation axis around where the shoulder moves in position to the body which does give the appearance of smaller shoulders pressed slightly forward. The majority of the tissue and bone that fundamentally makes a transgender woman's shoulders wider is still present, even with a shorter clavicle.
ligaments, tendons, and muscle are a non-issue for those who start young or really anyone who is on hrt for an extended period of time. in general we all know mileage may vary & that trans women overall have drastically different biologies based on the time they transitioned along with a ton of other factors. as for bones, the shoulder blade may be a possible limitation, but your clavicle is still the only bone that is truly determining your width, not to mention the surgeons doing the op have said that the clavicle is the only bone that would matter & that the pitched forward movement of the patient tends to resolve.
It shortens the clavicle which does reduce but with limited results as there is only so much you can reduce without impairing them. Also it can create a hunch back looking effect.
Okay. Damn it, surely they will find a way to change skeleton structure enough eventually. I’ve been looking at the human skeleton recently and it looks like one could probably achieve smaller shoulders through shortening the actual rib cages bones slightly, though, then there’s the issue of the organs inside possibly being too large. I wonder if there will be some kind of way to reverse the growth of these bones and organs that are too big? I like to think we will reach that stage eventually.
EDIT: downvote wasn’t necessary:/
I’m a cis woman with broad shoulders. It helps to get in the habit of pulling your shoulders back, which has the benefit of pushing your boobs out and making it look like you’ve lost weight overall.
Yeah I’ve noticed that helps a bit, it still really causes me discomfort
[deleted]
Wide at the bottom, but not at the top, I still need to do some weight cycling
Jamming organs into a smaller space is analogous to being obese and having internal fat push up against your organs causing health issues.
I had it done about 5 months ago. I had a total of 3 cm removed from each side.
In terms of effect, it does roll the shoulders in, greatly reducing the width. I've been thrilled with my results, and I'm so much happier wearing dresses now.
It does roll you shoulders forward, into a newly formed gap. It makes space, then uses it. I've had no real impact on mobility or flexibility.
Do you have a total shoulder width before and after measurement?
Sadly no. I was really sloppy with my documentation.
I hated my shoulders, like I refused to wear most dresses etc.
My thought process was, this surgery is the only thing that can do anything about my shoulders, so what I have I got to loose. Any improvement at all is a win.
Could you post pictures? I would be very interested in this operation. Greetings from Germany!
Sounds very successful. Where did you have it done?
Epply in Indiana. It was 22k and the recovery was pretty easy.
The one ugly bit, I got in a car accident 6 weeks after surgery that messed with my left shoulder. It's still a bit off. I don't know how the crash affected the healing etc. My right shoulder, unaffected by the crash, is at 100%.
Okay, ty for the reply. That sound like bad timing, but a surprisingly good recovery.
hey I'm really sorry to necro this post but I wanted to ask how things have been long term for you with your clavicle reduction? was it worth it in the end?
Can you clean you’re butt during recovery
I have seen some results. It looks legit.
It will roll your shoulders slightly forward from what I’ve seen. Results will also vary from patient to patient.
I will say though, the video from Leif Rogers everyone sees is a poor representation of the surgical result as he went super conservative on the removal. Eppley goes up to 3.5cm a side.
Also it would be factually incorrect to say your shoulder aren’t decreasing in size. The actual clavicle is being partially removed. It may be a more forward/scrunched look, but objectively speaking it definitely does reduce your shoulder width.
I just don’t know how though, wouldn’t it just give the illusion of being shortened? Since it’s rolled forward? I imagine to achieve some actual length reduction the opposite bone to the cavil might have to be reduced as well.
its not an illusion of anything…the bone is actually shortened…i quite literally have no idea what youre talking about 😭
If you look at a skeleton it doesn’t make sense that shortening the clavicle would make much of difference, what helps in making shoulders broader is the rib cage, if you look at this picture: https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTBM8LiMHsSJFzTG-FqXsruJgYPsvNQPcX6Jw&usqp=CAU
You can see that if you were to shorten the cage bones that have the shoulder and other bones connected to, you’d actually succeed far more in making the shoulders narrower. Though there’d be a limit so you don’t squish all your organs obviously but we don’t know unless it’s tried.
Example for a female skeleton https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQd3QaNdZdDkw7YGWhbGvncwWJegTJ3USt9bA&usqp=CAU
Have you looked at hip augmentation? It’s cheaper, the recovery’s faster, and there’s less potential to look slouched. It’s honestly much more about proportions than raw size
What’s that? Hip augmentation
Oh yeah I know about proportions.
As far as I know they only reduce the clavicle which will roll the shoulders a bit forward. That is part of why I'm not super impressed with the surgery. I'd be interested if they would do that with every single rib and the strenum, make the whole ribcage smaller too. With just this I don't think it's gonna do the posture a favor regardless if it still looks ok from the side.
Needless to say that would be an absolute hell of recovery but technically definitely possible.
My shoulders actually don't cause me that much dysphoria weirdly enough I guess it's because it just makes me look kinda buff
Haha yea
What’s funny?
all 40 comments