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The fact that his place is called “2 pass clinic” says enough for me to stay away.
Fuck. I'd never even considered how problematic that name was until this moment.
Oof
I was mainly referring to the “do I pass people”. People who live their lives trying to “pass” are going to be miserable forever. I want to look as feminine as I can, but I just focus on doing my best, not living up to someone else’s version of “passing”. A doctor who markets to these people will never get a cent of my business.
I think people want to pass because it alleviates dysphoria. It's also a toxic path to obsess about if you get too far into it. I think a cis doctor building a brand around the struggle with "passing" trans people are all forced to deal with is beyond shitty when I think about it.
Yea I agree that blending in as cis is the goal for most of us, but the whole “passing” culture really gets on my nerves and yes, to have a doctor take advantage of that is beyond annoying.
I don’t know why the word bothers me so much - probably because reddit is filled with pictures of 15 year olds lost in a video game fantasy of being trans in their moms Halloween costume pink wig asking “do I pass?”
They're young, dysphoric, and trying to figure it all out. I try not to be too hard on anyone. We're all in an almost constant state of pain for so long, it takes time to get in front of that.
I know I’m being a bitch, forgive me. I would never say anything like that to a person directly. I’m 34 going on 65 here.
It's ok, it's understandable. This shit robbed us of lots of time, and lots of comfort.
I wouldn't choose this, that's for sure. I'm salty as fuck about it sometimes.
Plus it's reddit, nobody's a georgia peach all the time on this site anyway
I certainly understand that sentiment, and have felt that most of my life. But for some reason over the last couple months I’ve developed a sense of gratitude about being trans. I’m not quite sure why, but there is something so special to me about being able to see the world from 2 perspectives. And I’ve come to the conclusion I wouldn’t change it. I might change the size of my shoulders or hands, but that’s another story.
Sorry to go off on so many tangents - my wife ran me a bubble bath and I’m just chilling here typing about trans stuff, peloton stuff and selling on amazon stuff. Lol. Reddit is new to me.
I love your comment. Currently in transition and of course I want to be taken as female but I'm not always. It actually doesn't bother me! Sometimes people think I'm female, sometimes they don't. I just worry about being happy with myself rather than what someone else thinks I should look like.
This is the perfect mindset
Oh wow I didn't think of it that way but that's almost certainly what they were going for.
I read it like "we don't get it right on the 1st try so we do a 2nd pass" which is also not what you want to hear from a surgeon.
Oh shit...
Woah, I had no idea. I even follow the clinic on Instagram and have considered it for future FFS (didnt do much research as I won't be able to afford it for at least a couple years).
Thanks for the heads up!
A lot of people are still blind to his crimes and he does very aggressive marketing which lures more unsuspecting victims.
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So this post disappeared from the top of recent results because the date of it was changed to Apr 15, 2016... unlike other posts from this subreddit. Guess someone requested it be removed or changed... 🙄
(the omitted results did not show it either)
Edit: Success!
Oh why would someone do that? That's not helpful.
I think this is just some sort of bug, unforrunately. I don't believe it's possible to manipulate google results so easily; you can get things removed for copyright violation (which isn't what happened here cuz the result would totally disappear) or you can try to get other links listed higher to push the ones you don't like further down the search results, but I don't think people can just ask Google to rearrange things
I've been going through the Wiki and the number of botched surgeries by Dr. Bart is astounding:
/r/TransSurgeriesWiki/wiki/ffs/europe
What's also concerning is that 2Pass always has the top results on Google when searching for FFS, leading many people to think they're a good option based solely on a few before-after photos.
So I figured we could do what they did here in order to warn more people:
I hope this doesn't break any subreddit rules..
Update: We did it reddit!
I see a lot of parallels between this and Dr Rumer.
She shows up on lots of google searches and not so thinly veiled advertising websites. Plus, some insurance covers her, so there’s a veneer of legitimacy.
Well I think it has been mentioned that Rumer and Van de Ven are the menaces in the world of transgender health. It's like some sort of plague slowly killing us all.
I believe he is investing heavily on his marketing at the moment. He has recently hired 2 new marketing people for advertising and damage control to paint a rosier picture of his bad work. He's very dangerous.
But isnt that good? People are loosing their jobs because of this pandemic so if they are able to hire isnt that awesome for the people that get hired?
He's definitely not hiring people to help anyone but himself. It's to exploit the dark side of marketing to lure in more potential patients and paint a nicer picture of himself to his benefit.
As if there's a light side to marketing
Of course, there are. Marketing can be used in different ways both good and bad. But these are lives we talking about where trust also plays a big part. It's different when you are sold a product or gadget that is supposed to work in a certain way but didn't, leaving you only with less coins in your pocket compared to paying for a life altering surgery putting your life in the hands of a person that according to his marketing is supposed to be excellent where the truth is he's the opposite. You must be completely inhumane to think it's ok to treat others like bags of coins.
I know right? The whole economy went to shit. We need jobs.
Oh yeah this guy! I remember reading about him. I've seen some of his botches. I feel insanely bad for the people's lives hes fucked. Definitely gonna stay away from him when its time to get FFS.
Yes you're better off avoiding him
It’s literally in the name. Second Pass Surgery!
I always thought it was weird he had so many photos in google and so few here...
I'm a cis male who stumbled upon this. I have a trans friend in Europe who had a consultation with these people a few years ago. Just the name of the clinic was enough to make me worry for her. I mean wtf?
I highly suspect that all these hate posts about Dr. Bart van de Ven are written by the same three people at most, the recent ones likely by the “Federal Tension” user, who has been very obsessively spamming the same complaints for months, (purposefully?) making it look like tons of people are being botched by him upon a simple Google search.
I had surgery with him a bit over two weeks ago, and I am so far very happy with the outcome. I had a forehead reconstruction, hairline recontouring and brow lift done and my recovery has been surprisingly minimal considering the heavy bone work that was needed in my case. I chose Dr. van de Ven because his approach seemed to be more about fixing than reducing masculine features, which is what I wanted for my forehead area.
I don’t know this for a fact, but I get the strong impression that Dr. van de Ven has had the highest patient count for FFS worldwide, so a handful mentally disturbed people obsessing over mild complications and maybe a few genuine “botched” cases (you’ll find at least one for every reputable surgeon) are inevitable, but making him out to be some butcher to be avoided and boycotting the clinic is simply slanderous.
Yes I saw that. But I've seen a lot more botched cases beyond Federal Tension both on and outside of reddit (one of my friends had a botched jaw by him as well). But that's not all; it's also about Bart's attitude towards his patients and refusal to acknowledge issues, and in some cases even demonstrating a serious lack of professionalism ( for example ).
Pretty sure FT is doing just as many surgeries as Bart and has no documented cases of botched surgeries; and I've been actively searching for them. I think the problem is that Bart is doing most of the surgeries himself and rushing through them in order to get to as many patients as possible, increasing risk of mistakes in the process.
I have hardly seen any positive results from the Belgium Butcher.
This name should be stickied to him
They keep saying if you want to pass go to them lol! It's more like if you want to die or end up botched you go to Bart 2 pass to the next life.
Lol
It's true! He doesn't know how to do surgery but he thinks he is good. I can't wait for his shop to close.
For real! Its messed up but it's hilariously true
He still is viewed as the only decent available option in germany. Does he pay his patient to advertise for him? Because most girls I have spoken to praised him for his work
Cause the alternatives are limited. Facialteam is almost twice as expensive so when you are already struggling financing an FFS that costs around 20k, how are you supposted to pay for them? Afaik Dr Inglefield does barely any advertising for his work so most trans woman in Germany won't even know his existance. And the option in Germany are also super limited. Like sure, surgeons like Dr Taskov, Dr Morath or Dr Schaff do also offer to perform an FFS on you, but they are specialized in bottom surgery and top surgery. So they'll naturally will have much less experience in that matter than any other FFS surgeon out there. Sure, there is also the option to fly to Asia or North- & South America but many people are not even willing to travel to the other side of the country for other surgeries and you need to "convince" them that distance should only be a small aspect in your decision for a surgeon.
So yeah, they either do not know better or they actually see him as their only option and are willing to take the risks cause even those risks seem to be worth it in their eyes over having to experience dysphoria. And that general perception that FFS is nothing more but a cosmetic surgery made out of vanity (which of course is utter bs), that even quite a number of trans people here in Germany hold, does not make the chances any better to improve the medical situation for trans woman here in Germany. :/
I have spoken to a few German transwomen. I think they don't come across websites like Realself, Facebook FFS group, google reviews and this sub-reddit much as they search in German and possibly have their own German or Dach speaking forums? Most complaints about Bart are by English speaking patients and usually are in English speaking platforms.
And yes he pays €250 or more for a review.
Hmmm this is interesting. It definitely looks like he has some type of scheme (discount I bet) for people with lots of instagram followers/whatever. Look at his tagged posts on instagram, lots of influencers. Also I got this screenshot the thing about Germany is definitely true.
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He repeatedlt has new unhappy patients. I'm sad he wasn't strucked off before I was ready for my FFS.
Could the Original Poster give us a reason why we should up vote this other then just because the title says so? I would have assumed there was a story behind this but I can but seeing it. Just a post saying to do so.
Don't flame my comment, I get the complaint aspect behind the name but on the other hand that is also the other hand, how many of us feel. Hating ourselves for not being passable. If this complaint is based solely on the name alone I think you are being to harsh. I really don't think this clinic or the name was designed to be malicious and in a single title it tells me they specialize in us specifically.
Honestly, if I actually need this type of surgery, if the poster's only complaint was the name and not some story where the doctors did something, I'd rather go here, to a place that already understands us and doesn't prejudge.
There is prejudice on both sides of anything, including something as simple as a company name. I try and assume the best in people but prepare for the worst. It gives me more opportunities rather then assume the worst to begin with preventing opportunities.
Alternatively if I am way off and there is some sort of scandal behind this company then I stress my original point, leaving a deception and or pinning it to the top.
so... now that he's dead did the clinic get any better or worse?
2 of my friends have had FFS with him and they look amazing? someone link me sources to his bad work because ive only seen good results. was considering him for my FFS once i saved
For starters: https://www.reddit.com/r/TransSurgeriesWiki/wiki/ffs/europe#wiki_bart_van_de_ven
Of course he has mostly good visual results. The question is about the complication rates. Many people report permanent loss of sensation, malpractice by shaving jaw too deep, performing unspecified surgeries (Type IV instead of Type III forehead), leaving dents and asymmetries, serious lack of professionalism, threatening lawsuits against people who speak up, sharing private information, coaxing people to leave good reviews, etc.
See read my experience with Dr. Bart Van de Ven. Click link below:
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I actually agree with you. I had surgery with him as well and am super happy since then, it was my ticket to a really happy life. I always have the feeling that he is more reckless than others, but this is also why I (very subjective I know, a lot of people will disagree) think his good results look better than e.g. FT because they aren't aggressive enough and people don't fully pass as female afterwards. Obviously if you aren't one of the lucky ones this recklessness will make it way way worse for you and I wholeheartedly support that these people get all possible help and compensation. But I also think you should be allowed to gamble with your life and looks if you so desire, unfortunately he doesn't tell you this during his consultations....
good results look better than e.g. FT because they aren't aggressive enough and people don't fully pass as female afterwards
Do you have any examples? One of the differences i noticed in the before and afters between dr. bart van de ven and facialteam is that dr. bart's pictures feature people that are a LOT younger compared to facialteam's. The few young people that are featured on FT's website have great results, and it makes sense that older patients would not get as far due to longer exposure to testosterone.
Recklessness is never good or acceptable when it comes to surgery. What world do you live in? And a surgeon whose work is inconsistent should not be operating. People's lives are not dices you roll as a surgeon. Only shit surgeons do that and still sleep soundly at night. And saying FT's patients don't pass afterwards is slander.
I don't doubt the majority of cases are visually successful (due to some combination of experience and luck). What I am concerned about is that 2Pass/Bart has a disproportionally high number of reported botched surgeries compared to FT and others, despite both performing just as many surgeries per week (although mostly by himself, which increases rate of mistakes).
And it's not just about passing or blending. Safety and complication rates are important. Would you have gone through with the surgery if it meant that there's a 15% risk of severing essential nerves in your face causing permanent loss of sensation or muscular function in major areas, even if there were lower risk options available?
In retrospect, would you choose a surgeon that behaved like this , this , this , or this ? (etc.)
What people need to undetstand is that Bart's results, disasters and non-existent bedside manner, aesthetics, experience and qualification and zero ethics if compared to other more consistent surgeons in their work and ethos, Bart is at the bottom of the pile. The visual results are nothing special and achievable by other surgeons, his disasters are much higher than others, his bedside manner and ethics non-existent, experience and training questionable. So put all of these factors together and the only reason most people go to him despite knowing his bad work is he is cheap and can sometimes produce ok results in the expense of having permanent nerve damage and many other functional damages.
Yeah honestly I find the hand wringing about passing laughable. Don't they want to be treated like a normal human being? But he does have a slew of bad results, even if most are fine. If you want to gamble with your health go ahead and do it, most people have lower risk tolerance.
I think almost every surgeon is in the "passing business" at least somewhat. Even the patient testimonial videos made by facialteam tend to mention things such as being treated properly by people as one of the key benefits they got from getting FFS done, its simply a key factor for why people get FFS.
Had ffs with Dr. Fart Van du ven 2-3 months ago and have problems. Pls halp me 😢😢😢
I still don’t know how people can afford Speigel and deshamps braly they are just ridiculously expensive
so i think im missing something, whats the problem with this particular clinic?
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