Is Dr Marci Bowers transphobic?

518
u/HiddenStill
Thu Oct 7 15:09:36 2021 UTC
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Important
(322 comments)

Its hard to believe this question is being raised, but it is the question of the moment .

Three days ago, on 5 October, Abigail Shrier published an interview with Dr Marci Bowers on her website, Top Trans Doctors Blow the Whistle on ‘Sloppy’ Care .

Two says later Shrier published Why Marci Matters: Dr. Marci Bowers’ and Dr. Erica Anderson’s Candor Could Help Thousands of Families

Abigail Shrier is the anti-trans author the book “Irreversible Damage: The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters”

The interview appeared immediately in the media and all over anti-trans hate groups – needless to say they love it.

Marci Bowers responded to the uproar on her Twitter account, acknowledging the interview, and notably not saying that it misrepresented her.

I’m not best person to analyze the implications of what’s happened here and since becoming a moderator I try to avoid commenting on surgeons. I’m mainly interested in the more medical aspects of transition, but this is a surgery sub, she’s a surgeon, and no one else has posted here about it here yet.

Even if the interview is a misrepresentation of her views, and it appears the time is past to say that, granting an interview to an anti-trans activist is incredibly damaging. No good can possibly come of it.

There’s a lot in the interview, but to pick a couple of bits out.

Bowers told me she now finds early puberty blockade inadvisable. “I’m not a fan of blockade at Tanner Two anymore, I really am not,” she told me, using the clinical name of the moment when the first visible signs of puberty manifest.

Bowers goes on to blame early puberty blockers for poor surgical results. Jazz Jennings (of the TV series) is a famous example as she has serious complications from surgery with Bowers (and Jess Ting). However, it should be noted that there are surgeons who have no difficulty working with these patients, producing excellent results.

Further, the 2020 paper Sexual Experiences of Young Transgender Persons During and After Gender-Affirmative Treatment published in Pediatrics, the Official Journal of the American Academy of Pediatrics studied "Early gender-affirmative treatment (GAT) of adolescents may consist of puberty suppression, use of affirming hormones, and gender-affirmative surgeries" and concludes "Early GAT (including puberty suppression, affirmative hormones, and surgeries) may provide young transgender adults with the opportunity to increase their romantic and sexual experiences" . The paper is positive and makes no mention of the difficulties described by Bowers.

“As for this ROGD thing,” Bowers said, “I think there probably are people who are influenced. There is a little bit of ‘Yeah, that’s so cool. Yeah, I kind of want to do that too.’”

ROGD, or Rapid-Onset Gender Dysphoria is yet another damaging manufactured attack on the trans community. It's also been thoroughly discredited by experts in the field.

The surgery wiki entry for Dr Marci Bowers is here

If it were almost anyone else apart from Marci Bowers it wouldn’t be such a big deal. But like it or not Bowers has enormous influence. She's quite famous, appearing many times in the mainstream media, including the TV show I am Jazz . She is also President Elect of WPATH , and will be the next president. The World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH) sets the international standards all of us have to follow to get HRT and surgery , and it's the standards USA medical insurance uses. The President of WPATH is the most influential position in transgender medicine and has enormous power to influence our care and how we are seen in society. This has gone beyond medicine and into politics, and in politics the truth no longer matters. It's not only a danger to transgender youth, but to all of us. This is not the kind of leadership we need.

Edit: I'll post updates below

The other person interviewed alongside Marci Bowers is Dr Erica Anderson, a trans women and clinical psychologist. There's some background to her transgendermap , but this point on another recent interview probably sums it up

Anderson was also a source for a 60 Minutes piece on “detransition” ...

... Her appearance has been cited in reporting critical of the transgender rights movement, including Fox News, The Daily Signal, The Federalist.

It should be noted that puberty blockers are reversible and puberty is resumed once stopped. They give time to make a choice rather than being forced to go though the damaging effects of puberty. There's nothing stopping someone who's started blockers early resuming puberty so they can get better surgical results - or they could go to a different surgeon's who is capable to getting good results; if they were advised of their options. It is of questionable ethics for a surgeon to offer surgery they are not competent to perform when there's other surgeons who are.

WPATH Standards of Care , V7, page 18-19

Fully Reversible Intervention

Adolescents may be eligible for puberty suppressing hormones as soon as pubertal changes have begun...

Two goals justify intervention with puberty suppressing hormones: (i) their use gives adolescents more time to explore their gender nonconformity and other developmental issues; and (ii) their use may facilitate transition by preventing the development of sex characteristics that are difficult or impossible to reverse if adolescents continue on to pursue sex reassignment. ... Puberty suppression may continue for a few years, at which time a decision is made to either discontinue all hormone therapy or transition to a feminizing/masculinizing hormone regimen. Pubertal suppression does not inevitably lead to social transition or to sex reassignment.***** I'm not posting links to hate sites, and anti-trans news sites, there's far to many and its depressing reading. However a typical title would be "Transgender doctors warn against sex changes for children".

Events

  • 5 October 2021 - Two leading transgender medics warn children should not be given puberty blockers, that too many are being given gender reassignment surgery and reveal NYT turned down their op-ed on the subject in the Daily Mail - from wikipedia "The Daily Mail is a British daily middle-market newspaper and online news source published in London in a tabloid format. Founded in 1896, it is the United Kingdom's highest-circulated daily newspaper."

  • 5 October 2021 - Florida Republican wants to jail doctors who prescribe gender-affirming healthcare to trans youth in Metro Weekly. Not a direct response to the interview given the timing and not mentioning it, but no doubt these politicians will be delighted with the support they have just been given - "A Florida Republican lawmaker who’s mounting a run for Congress has filed legislation that would prosecute doctors who prescribe gender-affirming treatments to transgender children. The bill, introduced by State Rep. Anthony Sabatini (R-Howey-in-the-Hills), would impose criminal penalties on any medical provider who performs transition-related surgical procedures on minors, as well as those who prescribe hormones or puberty blockers to transgender individuals under age 18."

  • 5 October 2021 - Australian anti-trans Pychiatrist and advocate for conversion therapy Dr Roberto D'Angelo retweets a tweet Two of the most prominent gender clinicians acknowledge that medicine zigs and zags and we have zagged too far. I can't express how significant it is to have the incoming President of WPATH acknowledge that they have been suppressing dissent and that the whole thing is off rails. D'Angelo is a Fellow of the Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Psychiatrists (RANZCP) who shortly afterwards released a Position Statement in support of Conversion Therapy , also see here and [here][( https://www.reddit.com/r/TransSurgeriesWiki/wiki/psychs/australia#wiki_roberto_d.27angelo ). This is very bad new for trans community in Australia where care for transgender children has been under sustained attack for years.

  • 6 October 2021 - Transgender doctors warn against sex changes for children on Yahoo News - "Medical professionals who are transgender are questioning gender reassignment procedures for children."

  • 7 October 2021 - Prominent trans doctors speak out on reckless treatment of children by gender healthcare providers in Women's Forum Australia. Women's Forum Australia is a charitable trust that aims "To inform government legislation and policies on issues of relevance to women's safety, health, freedom and well-being through high-quality research." and has published previous anti-trans material.

  • 9 October 2021 - Compassion Leads To The Surgeon’s Knife in The American Conservative magazine. The article is about what you're expect from a conservative American publication.

  • 13 October 2021 - Joint Letter from USPATH and WPATH, supporting the use of puberty blockers and hormone therapy in trans youth and that USPATH and WPATH "oppose the use of the lay press... as a forum for the scientific debate of these issues", see https://twitter.com/jokestress/status/1447964908088283138

  • 14 October 2021 - Transgender medics warn against puberty blockers and reassignment surgery for teens by Family First New Zealand a extreme right wing religious lobby group - "Dr Marci Bowers and Dr Erica Anderson warn that children should not be given puberty blockers, which they say could have irreversible consequences. They also warn that reassignment surgery can leave people permanently sexually-dysfunctional. There are also serious, longterm mental-health issues to consider. " This is not the first time they have been active on this topic, with Controversy brewing over transgender children’s access to puberty blockers on 30 March 2021, and MEDIA RELEASE: Calls Build For Ban On Puberty Blockers For Teens on 11 May 2021. This group also lobbies the banning conversion therapy in New Zealand, LGBT rights, abortion, etc, and has been successful in some of their past efforts.

  • 15 October 2021 - Anatomy of a scandal. Opinion on the use of puberty blockers in America is turning in The Economist - "Even members of the World Professional Association for Transgender Health have some concerns... The women, both trans, are on the board of the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH)... Dr Marci Bowers is a world-renowned vaginoplasty specialist, and Dr Erica Anderson is a clinical psychologist at the University of California’s Child and Adolescent Gender Clinic." .

  • 15 October 2021 - I warned that doctors were experimenting on trans-identified kids; now a famous trans surgeon agrees in The Christian Post, "Fast forward to today, and this very same Dr. Bowers, now even more famous because of the Jazz Jennings TV reality show, is speaking out against putting children on puberty blockers and warning about them having surgery at too young of an age. ... Looking back at the footage from our 2009 interview, I commend Dr. Bowers for his honesty. But I grieve for the all the children, now adults today, whose lives were so deeply damaged by this zigging “a little too far to the left." According to Wikipedia, The Christian Post , "is an American non-denominational, conservative, evangelical Christian online newspaper."

  • 17 October 2021 - Is It ‘Emotional Abuse’ for Parents to Deny a Child’s ‘Transgender’ Claims? in the National Review, "A recent Australian court decision sends a chilling message to parents who transgress the new gender orthodoxy: Refusing to validate a child’s “transgender” identity may be “emotional abuse” and put parents at risk of losing custody of their child. ... The combination of gender ideology and financial gain has radicalized medicine, mental health, and social work — a fact that parents often discover too late. (Education has been radicalized too, as I’ve discussed here.) Although there is little evidence of benefit and growing evidence of irreversible damage, “establishment” medicine and mental-health groups remain powerful advocates of “gender-affirmative” medical interventions for “trans-identifying” adolescents. Gender docs engage in “happy talk” about the hormone therapy and “magnificent surgeries” they do on kids. There’s pressure to toe the “party line” on the benefits of “affirming” medical interventions, admits Dr. Marci Bowers, a leading transgender surgeon, leaving “no room for dissent.” However, Bowers and another gender specialist, Dr. Erica Anderson, admit that the gender-affirming model has resulted in “reckless” and “sloppy care,” including the “abject failure” of some gender therapists to properly evaluate the mental-health histories of troubled teens." . According to Wikipedia, "National Review is an American semi-monthly conservative editorial magazine, focusing on news and commentary pieces on political, social, and cultural affairs. ... Since its founding, the magazine has played a significant role in the development of conservatism in the United States, helping to define its boundaries and promoting fusionism while establishing itself as a leading voice on the American right."

  • 19 October 2021 - Republican lawmakers in Ohio unveil bill prohibiting transgender kids from beginning transition in cleveland.com, "COLUMBUS, Ohio — A new bill would prohibit children under age 18 from obtaining hormones treatments, puberty blockers and surgery to transition genders, even with parental consent. ... House Bill 454, called the Save Adolescents from Experimentation (SAFE) Act, is sponsored by a quarter of the Ohio House. All are Republicans. There are two sponsors — Reps. Gary Click of Sandusky County and Diane Grendell of Geauga County. Twenty-three Republicans are cosponsoring the bill. ... The bill would prohibit nurses, counselors, teachers, principals and other staff at public and private schools from withholding from a child’s parents or guardian that the child believes they might be transgender. The school workers also wouldn’t be allowed to encourage the child to withhold the information from their parents or guardian." , no mention yet of Dr Bowers or Anderson.

  • 20 October 2021 - Republican Party of Texas Joins Lt. Gov. Patrick, Calls for Fourth Special Session on the Republican Party of Texas website, "The Republican Party of Texas joins with Lieutenant Governor Dan Patrick and supports Governor Abbott convening the legislature in a Fourth Special Session to fulfill the following outstanding items: ... Banning gender modification, including cross sex hormone treatment and puberty blockers, as outlined in the Legislative Priorities of the Republican Party of Texas." . No mention of Bowers/Anderson yet.

  • 21 October 2021 - Why America’s social justice narratives always crash and burn in The Spectator - "Unlike in Britain, where there is a strong debate about trans questions, especially the treatment of children with gender dysphoria, the woke media in the US will not print a word about it, and when they do, describe it as function of hateful transphobia and nothing else. But last week we found out, in fact, that medical treatment of gender dysphoric kids was ‘sloppy, sloppy healthcare’, without sufficient attention to kids’ overall mental health, and that many children who have been put on puberty blockers, followed by cross sex hormones, will never experience an orgasm as an adult. Who told us this? Two transgender surgeons who are pre-eminent practitioners of trans surgery — on the board of the World Professional Association for Transgender Health — no less." . According to Wikipedia The Spectator is "... a weekly British magazine on politics, culture, and current affairs. It was first published in July 1828, making it the oldest weekly magazine in the world. ... Editorship of The Spectator has often been a step on the ladder to high office in the Conservative Party in the United Kingdom. Past editors include Boris Johnson ..."

  • 21 October 2021 - WATCH: Abigail Schrier tells Tucker Carlson how to win America’s gender war "Journalist Abigail Schrier joined Fox News' Tucker Carlson on "International Pronouns Day" to discuss conservatives losing the war on gender and what they need to tackle to fight back and win. ... Schrier added. 'No more teenage girls with mental health problems walking into Planned Parenthood and walking out that day with a course of testosterone. No more lying to the public about the harms of puberty blockers.'"

  • 21 October 2021 - Two Transgender Specialists Wonder: Has The New Orthodoxy Gone Too Far? in The Federalist, "Abigail Shrier, author of “Irreversible Damage,” interviewed Dr. Marci Bowers, a world-renowned vaginoplasty specialist who operated on Jazz Jennings, and Erica Anderson, a clinical psychologist at the University of California San Francisco’s Child and Adolescent Gender Clinic. It’s a flashing red light that these two specialists are voicing doubts publicly. These practitioners are also transgender, and have helped hundreds of children and teenagers transition. Now they ask, has the new orthodoxy gone too far?" . According to Wikipedia The Federalist "... is an American conservative online magazine and podcast that covers politics, policy, culture, and religion, and publishes a newsletter."

  • 22 October 2021 - ‘Counting Ourselves’ – Advocacy Research Should Be Treated With Caution in Family First in New Zealand (also see previous press release 14 October 2021 above). Among a litany of hate we have "The unit has also been silent on the latest statements coming from key leaders in the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH). Two of the world’s leading doctors for gender reassignment procedures – both of them transgender women – have expressed concern about the number of children being given puberty blockers, and undergoing gender/sex reassignment surgery, describing the rise in procedures as “deeply worrying”. Dr Marci Bowers and Dr Erica Anderson warn that children should not be given puberty blockers, which they say could have irreversible consequences. They also warn that reassignment surgery can leave people permanently sexually-dysfunctional. There are also serious, long-term mental-health issues to consider."

  • 24 October 2021 - The controversy over trans teens by The Week, cites Dr Marci Bowers, Erica Anderson, Abigail Shrier, Lisa Littman ( inventor of ROGD ), and anti-trans USA psychologist Laura Edwards-Leeper , anti-trans movements in the UK and Finland.

  • 27 October 2021 - James O’Keefe, Abigail Shrier, and David Daleiden on Investigative Journalism in The American Spectator, "Abigail Shrier: Oh well in the last week, I published on, actually I did it with Bari Weiss, who is a liberal and I had interviewed two top transgender gender medical providers. ... And here I had two top gender providers who were trans women themselves acknowledging some of the risks that WPATH has never acknowledged. So this week, WPATH put out a statement (WPATH is the worldwide transgender health organization) directing its members, doctor members, they set the transgender medical services wordwide, to stop talking to the lay press. I don’t consider that a loss. I, honestly, it was like my birthday came early. For the first time, they are in retreat, and that’s a very good thing." , according to Wikipedia, The American Spectator "... is a conservative American online magazine (formerly a monthly print magazine) covering news and politics..."

  • 28 October 2021 - Partial ban on transgender therapies, operations proposed in Ohio on fox19.com - "A new bill making its way through the Ohio House of Representatives would prohibit underage Ohioans from receiving transgender medications or undergoing procedures. HB 454, or the “Save Adolescents from Experimentation (SAFE)” act, would ban puberty blockers, hormone treatments and gender-change surgery for Ohioans under 18 even with parental consent. Doctors who provide gender transition procedures to minors could have their licenses revoked." . No mention of Shrier, it further shows the importance of what is occurring.

  • 2 November 2021 - The Teen Trans Craze by Abigail Shrier - "Six months after I published Irreversible Damage in June of 2020, the High Court of Justice in England heard the testimony of doctors I had interviewed in my book and declared that a young woman, Keira Bell, had been subject to a hasty, reckless medical transition she began at age 16 with grossly inadequate medical oversight." - the Kiera Bell case shut down medical care for trans youth in the UK for a period of time before it was overturned on appeal, see Court overturns cruel Keira Bell ruling depriving trans kids of life-saving puberty blockers in Pink News September 20121.

  • 4 November 2021 - Dear Trans Activists: parents have their ‘lived experience’ of gender dysphoria, too on mercatornet - "It also seems that even the lived experience of trans people is only considered valid if it fits the preferred narrative. As mentioned above, two prominent gender clinicians, Erica Anderson and Marci Bowers, have recently spoken out to express concerns about paediatric gender medicine. This included comments about the validity of the concept of social contagion, and their belief that adolescent onset gender dysphoria can be complicated by underlying mental health conditions. These people are both trans women. Yet just days later WPATH (World Professional Association of Transgender Health) released a statement condemning any discussion of these issue in the media. Coincidence? I think not." - Mercatornet is a trading name of Australian anti-trans, anti-LGBT, anti-euthanasia, etc, Australian Charity(!) New Media Foundation LTD .

  • 23 November 2021 - Texas gender clinic that prescribed puberty blockers to kids closes down amid protests in The Christian Post - "“Second, there is plenty that the medical profession can offer children with gender dysphoria, or Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria that deals with the heart of the problem without permanently damaging their bodies. Let’s hope many more clinics in the U.S. are shuttered.”" . Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria is the (discredited) invention of anti-trans activist and member of Genspect Dr Lisa Littman.

  • 24 November 2021 - The mental health establishment is failing trans kids by Laura Edwards-Leeper and Erica Anderson in The Washington Post. One of the authors of this article, Anderson, was interviewed along with Bowers, and the other, Laura Edwards-Leeper, as above a notable anti-trans USA psychologist and according to anti-trans site Genspect , "She is the WPATH Chair of the Child/Adolescent Committee and part of the team writing the new guidelines, SOC 8, to be released soon." . More on Genspect here . According to Wikipedia , "The Washington Post (also known as the Post and, informally, WaPo) is an American daily newspaper published in Washington, D.C. It is the most-widely circulated newspaper within the Washington metropolitan area, and has a large national audience. Daily broadsheet editions are printed for D.C., Maryland, and Virginia. The newspaper has won 69 Pulitzer Prizes, the second-most of any publication (after The New York Times). Post journalists have also received 18 Nieman Fellowships and 368 White House News Photographers Association awards. The paper is well known for its political reporting and is one of the few remaining American newspapers to operate foreign bureaus. "

  • 29 November 2021 - Transgender Docs Warn About Gender-Affirmative Care for Youth by Alicia Ault on WebMD - "The latest skirmish was set off by comments made by Marci Bowers, MD, president-elect of the World Professional Association for Transgender Health and Erica Anderson, PhD, president of the U.S. Professional Association for Transgender Health." - according to Wikipedia , "WebMD is an American corporation known primarily as an online publisher of news and information pertaining to human health and well-being. ... It is one of the top healthcare websites by unique visitors."

  • 1 December 2021 - Dr Erica Anderson (interviewed alongside Bowers) posts on the Genspect twitter page "My Amazing colleague and friend Dr Laura Edwards-Leeper and I started on a journey several years ago. Unknowingly then we were monitoring developments which we have come to see more clearly as indications of the shift away from the careful evaluation of individual youth identity." Genspect is a very active anti-trans organization, more on them here . All of these people are connected.

  • 13 December 2021 - Please give feedback on the new WPATH Standards of Care draft guidelines. This will affect trans healthcare for the next decade. post on reddit - "First, and most egregious, is the entire adolescent chapter. This section legitimizes the debunked hypothesis of “social contagion” causing people to identify as trans (p4,) gives lip service to the entirely debunked junk science of “Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria," and advocates for extensive gatekeeping of any and all trans adolescents prior to beginning HRT (Statement 3 & discussion) p11-12. This section also propagates a recently-coined euphemism for anti-trans conversion therapy: “gender exploratory therapy” (top of p15.) This term is used by numerous conversion therapists and by transphobic hate groups [1] [2] which refuse to affirm the identities of trans people & oppose the ability of trans adolescents to access any kind of gender-affirming medical treatment (puberty blockers, HRT, and surgeries.) Statement 11 legitimizes unfounded “concerns” of transphobic parents regarding alleged social contagion & perceived “very recent and/or sudden self-awareness of gender deiversity” (p20.) Statement 12B (p22-23) requires “several years” of well-documented “gender incongruence or gender diversity” prior to the initiation of HRT. Statement 12D (p24-26) advocates for further gatekeeping of autistic trans adolescents prior to initiation of HRT."

  • 6 January 2022 - A Trans Pioneer Explains Her Resignation from the US Professional Association for Transgender Health in Quillette - Dr Erica Anderson resigns from USPATH (not WPATH), and says "The main criticism of me is that many in the trans community regard Abigail Shrier as anathema, as a critic of appropriate trans care. I think that’s an inaccurate reading of what she’s written. And I think that it’s a distortion." On wikipedia "Quillette has been associated with the "intellectual dark web", a term used, according to Politico, to describe "a loose cadre of academics, journalists and tech entrepreneurs who view themselves as standing up to the knee-jerk left-leaning politics of academia and the media." The founder Claire Lehmann has previously taken anti-trans positions, eg twitter post "For those unfamiliar with the jargon: trans desistance = the high % of kids who grow out of it and ROGD = the socially contagious version of transgenderism. Activists have been largely successful so far in suppressing this research." and Treatment for children with gender ambiguity ‘shouldn’t be hyjacked by activists’ .

  • 22 March 2022 - Opinion: The health establishment is failing young adults who question their gender in the San Francisco Examiner. Anderson argues against informed consent for adults, saying "For some time, pediatric specialty clinics at major university medical centers have recognized the needs of the 18- to 25-year-old population... It is widely known that the executive function of the brain — specifically in terms of planning and anticipation of consequences — is not fully mature until approximately age 25."

top 200 comments


209
u/fastpilot71
Fri Oct 8 20:37:19 2021 UTC
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(65 children)

"Bowers goes on to blame early puberty blockers for poor surgical results."

No, that's bad surgical technique combined with an unaware endo. Per Dr. Powers a low T cream resolves that issue without systemic masculinization. There are also techniques using the peritoneum.

Why is Bowers unaware of this?

Has she skipped her continuing Ed?

64
Tue Oct 12 01:15:59 2021 UTC
(43 children)

Surgeons can’t use Reddit for care guidelines.

60
Mon Oct 18 19:13:50 2021 UTC
(2 children)

iirc Bowers tried to get Jazz Jennings to use a topical T cream (which Jazz didn’t want to do) and per Bowers’ own website has also done vaginoplasty utilizing the tunica vaginalis system which is even less comprehensively documented than the peritoneum technique

9
Wed May 25 16:15:25 2022 UTC
(0 children)

I don't know much about the surgeries to date, I had surgery many years ago. I just want to make a comment and say that I understand Jazz's feelings I wouldn't want to use something that would make my 'thing' even more apparent!

8
Sat Apr 2 01:10:23 2022 UTC
(0 children)

Well I don't blame Jazz for that!

21
Tue Oct 12 01:16:44 2021 UTC
(37 children)

They can use the research those threads are based on.

45
Tue Oct 12 01:21:45 2021 UTC
(36 children)

They cannot. Do you know how medicine is practiced? He has no research and you cannot practice medicine just using information on Reddit, you’d lose your license at best. Research means peer-reviewed in a credible journal. He hasn’t even published in TSQ and they’ll publish anything.

58
Wed Dec 1 19:09:17 2021 UTC
(6 children)

There’s a difference between pointing to Reddit in court as evidence of standard of care, and taking ideas posted by physicians practicing on the fringes of evidenced based medicine and incorporating things into your own practice as you see fit. When it comes to transgender care, much of it doesn’t have standards of care because being able to treat a transgender patient doesn’t seem to be standard among physicians yet.

Source: Am physician

14
Wed Dec 1 19:27:53 2021 UTC
(4 children)

there absolutely are standards of care for transgender health care. i have no clue how you could even say that.

55
Wed Dec 1 20:27:34 2021 UTC
(1 child)

I don’t think you understand what standards of care are. I think you’re referring to recommendations published by national and international organizations. I’m referring to the standard of care - ie what would a similarly trained physician do in a similar circumstance (what is frequently argued in the courtroom, hence my reference to court). Since I’d argue the vast majority of physicians in the country have little to no training or experience treating transgender patients, there essentially isn’t a standard of care. That’s what I was referring to.

Physicians regularly modify their practice habits based on things other than randomized clinical trials, because most of medicine either can’t or hasn’t yet been studied that way. Some read blogs and listen to podcasts, and take that knowledge into their next shift or patient encounter.

3
Thu Dec 23 07:39:53 2021 UTC
(0 children)

Lack of training isn't the same as standards not existing. There are standards, and while doctors have leeway they also have to be able to justify to their peers their thinking it something goes wrong. This is why a lot of doctors do consults, so that they have an idea of if they are going off the rails or not with their treatment ideas.

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23
Tue Oct 12 11:48:31 2021 UTC
(26 children)

"They cannot." <-- Yes, they can.

"Do you know how medicine is practiced?" <-- For one thing, learning whats newly learne

" He has no research and you cannot practice medicine just using information on Reddit." <-- No why are you lying and claiming I ever said "just using information on Reddit."

" you’d lose your license at best. Research means peer-reviewed in a credible journal." <-- And why do you pretend that is true? Some of the most current research on the planet is discussed on Reddit.

"He hasn’t even published in TSQ and they’ll publish anything." <-- So what? I refer to what he references.

10
Tue Oct 12 11:55:02 2021 UTC
(25 children)

What is your experience in health care?

27
Tue Oct 12 12:06:34 2021 UTC
(23 children)

Personally as a patient...

...And married to an RN doing clinical research at NIH with a Nobel winning researchers at one point, reading several inches thick IRB reports she was working on and hearing how from her how they did things, and about my own TG issues conversing extensively with researchers and care providers from around the world for over 40 years.

I have news for you, dude.

MDs use wikipedia on occasion!

BOOM!

Your mind is blown...

A link is a link.

If you have the wit to recognize the truth when you see it.

31
Tue Oct 12 12:08:54 2021 UTC
(12 children)

I’m not a dude. I’m an actual researcher for a trans health program and I literally teach surgeons. They do not use Reddit for sources. At all. My mind is not blown.

18
Tue Oct 12 12:13:36 2021 UTC
(10 children)

"I’m not a dude." <-- That"s a movie reference actually, I think from Point Break.

"I’m an actual researcher for a trans health program and I literally
teach surgeons. They do not use Reddit for sources. At all." <-- Then depending on the subreddit, they are missing a resource.

27
Tue Oct 12 12:16:24 2021 UTC
(6 children)

Idc if it’s a movie reference, I’m not a dude, don’t call me one. Why misgender people?

Surgeons read surgical journals. They wouldn’t be able to keep their license or work at a hospital if they were operating on people using info from Reddit.

Why is this so hard to believe?

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9
Wed Nov 17 15:37:06 2021 UTC
(2 children)

this was a childish response. You were doing well before this.

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Thu Oct 14 22:25:11 2021 UTC
(9 children)

[deleted]

11
Wed Nov 24 12:00:42 2021 UTC
(0 children)

you are absurd, wrong and utterly clinically illiterate

clinicians routinely use social media to discuss research and literature - and before social media you used to write letters to Journals, discuss papers at grand rounds and at conferences

7
Fri Oct 15 22:42:23 2021 UTC
*
(6 children)

No, because they already know what is discussed on "social media" is a reference to actual research.

If you aren't aware of how to use Wikipedia and the like to find the relevant research ...

Not my problem.

6
Fri Oct 15 22:55:48 2021 UTC
(5 children)

physicians use search engines such as PubMed to find relevant peer-reviewed medical literature. it would be a red flag if they primarily used wikipedia.

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4
Wed Nov 24 11:58:00 2021 UTC
(0 children)

if i hand a paper with appropriate citations to a HCP they can use it to inform their practice CPD regardless of how they got the paper

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3
Thu Oct 14 22:23:24 2021 UTC
(1 child)

Agreed. Most don’t even know what it is because they are insanely busy and have no life outside of operating.

7
Thu Dec 16 05:22:20 2021 UTC
(0 children)

Many surgeons have their social media and promote themselves with marketing just like any other businesses. Not all are extremely busy.

29
Thu Oct 14 22:22:21 2021 UTC
(3 children)

There is no continuing Ed for trans medicine. It’s truly the Wild West of medical care.

8
Fri Oct 15 22:40:43 2021 UTC
(2 children)

No, state boards govern them the same as any other doctor, and if there are no literal continuing ed hours for them -- there is still staying current enough to be competent.

17
u/52jag
Fri Oct 22 11:14:40 2021 UTC
(1 child)

There is also no research or perhaps little medical research on our community. Everything we get new is a hand me down from elsewhere. I wish when problems arise doctors would consult others and considering the current context those with more experience.

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24
Tue Oct 19 19:26:45 2021 UTC
(1 child)

That's a good question. One of Dr. Bower's patients, Jazz, filmed her consultation with the Dr. Dr. Bowers proposes using a low T cream to develop Jazz's scrotum precisely because the puberty blockers that Jazz was taking resulted in her genitals having far less tissue to work with. Jazz was strictly against using T cream, so Dr. Bowers had to work around that. To do so, Jazz's neovagina was made with peritoneum.

20
Wed Oct 20 15:23:29 2021 UTC
(0 children)

Then A) not having much material to work with is a consequence of Jazz's decision most likely and B) Bowers had no known excuse for generically blaming puberty blockers for the poor initial outcome of Jazz's 1st surgery, no excuse for criticizing their use.

18
Mon Oct 11 21:36:35 2021 UTC
(1 child)

like the line ive heard most is "if i knew this could happen i never would have had the surgery". Thats awful and means the patient truly didnt know what they were doing. its malpractice and im glad someone who cant be accused of transphobia is speaking up.

(lol or so i thought, clearly per the post title it doesnt matter who says it: diagnostic accuracy and due diligence is transphobic)

14
Mon Oct 11 23:33:59 2021 UTC
*
(0 children)

"diagnostic accuracy and due diligence is" <-- Not apparent in anything Dr. Bowers is reported to have said.

"Thats awful and means the patient truly didnt know what they were doing. " <-- Except of course as the satisfaction rate with these surgeries exceeds 98%, its simply not a thing that comes up much...

Although much harped on by transphobes.

24
Mon Oct 11 21:32:56 2021 UTC
(7 children)

low T cream *CAN* resolve that issue, nothing promises to. We are still writing the instruction manual to the human body, and there are a lot of exceptions to the things we have learned. No, this does not work perfectly, and not for everyone.

Please dont take this as an attack on you, but this is a major problem with the mentality in many seeking surgery and other appearance altering treatments. NOTHING is promised aside from best efforts given the info we currently have. If youre one of the exceptions to what we know, you may get written about in a medical journal, but youre otherwise fucked.

I want a lot of things 'fixed' but considering the rate of complications and the people i know who went from being 'insecure and depressed about a feature' to being 'cripplingly depressed, suicidal, and regretful over their now permanently disfigured feature which is much worse than it initially was', i am rethinking things.

I am in med school, and it just isnt as straightforward as you say. Thats all Bowers meant. Its not fair to put a patient under that kind of risk if they dont 100% understand what could happen, and with the trans community especially, drs are hesitant to be 100% honest about the risks because it could come off unsupportive or critical. The pussyfooting is dangerous and recklessly endangering, and i really hate the fairytale illusion it has created.

37
OP
Tue Oct 12 00:42:41 2021 UTC
(5 children)

There’s attempts around the world to ban all medical care for trans kids and Bowers has just handed them a huge stick to attack medical care with. They briefly succeeded in the uk this year before it was overturned. If she had legitimate concerns this is not the place to air them. It’s incredibly damaging.

And when she becomes president of WPATH just imagine how much worse it’s going to be.

6
Tue Oct 12 16:15:05 2021 UTC
(4 children)

where is the place to air them? physicians talk about this stuff privately to each other, nothing comes of it because positive change in this sense means challenging the greater narrative, and when you do that alone you just lose your own license and cant help anyone. So what do you think she should have done, how is the legitimate concern behind her message supposed to be addressed?

23
OP
Tue Oct 12 21:41:11 2021 UTC
(3 children)

Are you actually trans yourself?

8
Thu Oct 14 13:59:57 2021 UTC
(2 children)

Yes and no, still working that out tbh, life is... confusing to say the least, really would prefer not to get into my personal/medical issues w strangers on the internet tho. Does that affect your answer to my question though? I may be in a weird position re: identity, but i do have empathy and critical thinking abilities. Ill hear whatever you have to say for what it is

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7
Mon Oct 11 23:53:43 2021 UTC
(0 children)

"low T cream *CAN* resolve that issue" <-- And does so so commonly not attempting it is close to malpractice.

"No, this does not work perfectly, and not for everyone." <-- So what? The implied idea only what is perfect should be undertaken is ridiculous.

" NOTHING is promised aside from best efforts given the info we currently have. If youre one of the exceptions to what we know, you may get written about in a medical journal, but youre otherwise fucked." <-- And? BTW, where are the journal entries about testosterone application not producing growth in such a case?

"I want a lot of things 'fixed' but considering the rate of complications and the people i know who went from being 'insecure and depressed about a feature' to being cripplingly depressed, suicidal, and regretful over their now permanently disfigured feature which is much worse than it initially was', i am rethinking things." <--- "Please dont take this as an attack on you", but I"m sure this is a variety of the hypochondria many medical students find themselves afflicted by in the course of their studies.

"I am in med school, and it just isnt as straightforward as you say. Thats all Bowers meant." <-- No, I believe that is not what she meant at all. I believe she meant there was nothing she could possibly have done better for Jazz Jennings, and she lays all blame for any less than ideal outcome at the feet of the policy of using puberty blockers for transgender youth.

" Its not fair to put a patient under that kind of risk if they dont 100% understand what could happen" <-- I don"t know exactly what was said to Mrs. Jennings by Dr. Bowers, I don"t think you do either. I am certain that if a T cream was used and it did not "work" that is close to being the only case of that I"ve ever heard of, and if you know of more please do relate them. I also am led to believe she was told a surface skin graft was her best bet, that that is all but certainly not the case.

" i really hate the fairytale illusion it has created." <-- You haven"t demonstrated any such thing has been created.

5
OP
Wed Oct 13 04:11:19 2021 UTC
(0 children)

Fyi

13 October 2021 - Joint Letter from USPATH and WPATH

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108
u/bw08761
Tue Oct 12 05:15:12 2021 UTC
(9 children)

Lmao I don't think we should be shocked that people who transitioned as adults are selling us out. I've seen a lot of hurtful opinions/things said by adults who harbor jealously for not being able to transition young.

Moreover, the idea that it was her (Bowers') fault that Jazz got a bad result is unpalatable to her, and it's a lot easier to simply blame the blockers. Any girl who starts at tanner two still has enough tissue to create the external structures combined with a PPT flap. The most criminal part of this is we've known about PPT for decades, but no one bothered to apply it to us because no one gives a shit about us.

29
Wed Nov 24 12:04:45 2021 UTC
*
(7 children)

one question people seem to skirt around with Jennings is was she the victim of infant genital mutilation - as this remains all to common in AMAB neonates in the US

certainly the UK based surgeons advise that the anxiety around ' adequate donor material' is much more of a US issue , because so many of the surgical candidates in the US had third to a half of their foreskin removed as a neonate

20
Fri Nov 26 08:02:15 2021 UTC
(1 child)

It wouldn’t matter anyways since we have PPT as a viable option. I mean ideally a foreskin provides more tissue, but with a peritoneal flap that issue really is irrelevant. It really just comes down to Bowers’ own laziness.

13
Sat Dec 25 23:10:04 2021 UTC
(0 children)

it does seem to be that a lot ofthe problems Dr Bowers faces are down to her own complacency , perhaps compounded by the difficulties that a certain Psychologist and alsoa now retired jack of all trades Dr in the field in the UK had where cis clinicians feel less able to challenge their pillockitude

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11
Wed Nov 10 05:01:41 2021 UTC
(0 children)

Or white (because of white supremacy) and or relatively wealthy.

52
u/MuOverTwo
Fri Oct 29 14:20:33 2021 UTC
(11 children)

The hate directed at trans women who transitioned in adulthood in this thread is really bizarre. Bowers is not every trans woman who transitioned after the age of 18, and pretending she is is gross and harmful.

20
Wed Dec 22 08:39:46 2021 UTC
(10 children)

There does seem to be a prominate pattern of post pubescent trans women that are against adolescent transitioning. It’s typical the same reasons and tbf a lot of it stems from body jealousy. Like if adult trans people had to suffer puberty so should every trans person.

20
Thu Dec 23 08:00:29 2021 UTC
(0 children)

I think it is less being against as it is being more cautious. I for one can understand and support trans youth getting access to appropriate care. However I also am seeing a narrative of trans kids thinking they will be "ruined" if they don't get blockers and hormones prior to 18.

That is the source of my discomfort on the topic. Not every kid is going to have the backing and resources to go on blockers and start hormones early. Then there is the fact that I see a disturbing trend of people treating transition as of it were clothing, and coaching kids how to get past therapists for getting on said treatments.

It isn't that older trans people want kids to suffer, it is because we know that putting everything on age is stupid and harmful in itself.

16
Sun Feb 13 07:34:36 2022 UTC
(6 children)

I’m 33 and probably starting hormones soon. From my perspective I’d just be concerned that kids make sure they’re making the proper choice; so many AFABs are looking to transition now, to the point that newer AFAB patients outnumber AMAB ones substantially. In so many of these cases girls are pursuing this course after sexual assault or other trauma, when understandably they’re searching for answers and for perceived safety. But if that decision is the wrong one then they’re in for a world of hurt a few years down the line. If a kid has been gender non-conforming since they were 4 or 5 and their choice is the culmination of a long road, that’s one thing. But if a 16-year-old with no prior history of this stuff just suddenly decides they’re trans after all then it’s worth asking questions.

11
Sun Feb 13 08:33:15 2022 UTC
(4 children)

No one is saying it’s not. Blanket policies tho is effect all minors and that’s the issue. Leave it to the professionals. They have psychiatrist and psychologist that specialize in this so let them do their job. I’m not willing to put real trans youth lives in jeopardy because of some confused 16 y/o cis girls.

4
Sun Feb 13 08:35:08 2022 UTC
(3 children)

I agree with that completely. All I’m saying is that those intermediary steps you’re describing should take place with young patients.

5
Sun Feb 13 08:38:35 2022 UTC
(2 children)

They are. Which is why we aren’t seeing afab detransitioners because in reality these girls aren’t even transitioning. Unfortunately, they are just extremely vocal. So vocal that they are silencing real trans peoples voices.

11
Sun Feb 13 08:59:49 2022 UTC
(1 child)

Seeing a subset of trans-identifying people want as much attention as humanly possible has been a really odd thing. For many of us it seems that the goal has long been to pass as seamlessly as we can.

12
Sun Feb 13 09:45:26 2022 UTC
(0 children)

Well the reality is they still have passing privilege. For us it’s about passing and blending in for ourselves but as well for safety. For them it’s a flip of the switch. They are only trans when it benefits them and only in some weird ideological gender deconstruction sense. Aside from that nothing about them screams anything less then edge lord attn seeking cis girl. They dont have to actually live in the same world we do. Though it’s also why I don’t really feel that I’m transgender. I’m Transexual because my trans-ness is far far deeper then gender. Esp. If gender isn’t real. I’m also extremely tired of “transgender” people telling me I don’t need to transition to fit societies expectations and that I need to just love the body I have. It’s literally a traphobic argument to make. I’m sure someone will read this and then I’ll be called a truscum transphobe and be banned. Though it’s what ever cause the only people saying that are literally the people appropriating my medical condition.

10
Thu May 12 19:40:23 2022 UTC
(0 children)

This is simply not true and I am disappointed in you for perpetuating these lies.

12
Mon Jan 10 02:49:34 2022 UTC
(0 children)

I'm starting transitioning at 30. I'm very envious of not being able to transition earlier. This is mostly due to where I live (Deep south, extreme homophobia), and my dad (Nazi-Catholic Hitler). Envious is the word though, not jealousy for me. I'm so happy that younger people are getting the support they need because for me these past ~20 years or so has seemed like I was Atlas carrying the weight of the world on my shoulders along with everything else that's in that world. I wish I could've had the courage to say something but I was afraid of my father, that it would cause a divorce because my mother is amazing (they did later divorce before I even came out), or that I'd be left on the street or to stay at friend's houses (if i could).

To take that ability for young people to transition and not face a puberty they don't want is absolutely unethical and it makes me sad that there are that many actual trans people propagating this idea and is bitter misdirected jealousy. It makes me so happy that there are far less people that are experiencing the horrible youth and young adulthood that I did. The suicide attempt rate for transgender youth is 40-50% and roughly 20% succeed. The same rate of attempts and success is the same even after youth up to around age 30 (this is all the info regarding this i can recall at this moment).

Suffering the puberty I didn't want to. Not being able to say anything to my parents out of absolute fear of my father is something I would never want to put on another young transgender person. I had suicidal-ideation starting around 5th grade on-wards.

Like I said these people have misdirected their anger towards the type of puberty they experienced and resulting life because of it. Instead of getting mad at society and the way they treat us they focus on the younger people know and think of what could've been and instead of what could be.

My father's side is extremely catholic and I remember multiple conversations where they assosciated gay/trans/etc people with pedophiles and the devil. This would also be coming out of the mouth of someone I loved as well (my grandmother) as she would be talking to my dad. This obviously made me extremely hesitant to even remotely think about saying anything.

I say that because there's no way in hell I'd wish for young transgender people of today to experience what I've had to. The fact that society is starting to come around has made me really happy and finally gave me enough courage to be me. To take one step forward like that then several steps back would be incredibly heartbreaking.

This would also lead to more people doing DIY hormone regiments that aren't monitored by a doctor if they try to ban helping transgender youth where otherwise if they didn't do that they could get help from a doctor and be monitored correctly (and hopefully optimally).

5
Wed May 25 16:52:06 2022 UTC
(0 children)

I would never be against childhood transition because I think I've always felt like an outsider and always been uneasy about being close to people because of going through the wrong puberty. If the puberty development could have been corrected, even at the price of not being a sexual person, I would have been happier with that solution.

44
u/Devil_Inside78
Fri Oct 8 03:06:19 2021 UTC
(0 children)

Internalized transphobia is definitely a thing. In addition she has "made it" and is now famous and influential. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. It's disgusting to hear her say these things and I'll definitely be crossing her off of my list of potential surgeons. She needs to be reality checked.

68
u/nd-transfemme
Fri Oct 8 01:31:52 2021 UTC
(4 children)

Sounds like bowers needs to update her techniques rather than tell trans youth to go through a hellish puberty for her convenience.

28
Sun Oct 17 03:58:00 2021 UTC
(2 children)

Yeah I'm gonna throw my feather into this hat and add yes, she's transphobic because she transitioned as an adult, is jelly like another said, and is a shitlib who doesn't care about the poor. I called this bitch out for being a trans woman who charges for live necessity surgery years ago and got called insane for doing so. I told y'all she's a sellout to our kind.

4
Sun Oct 17 14:50:21 2021 UTC
(1 child)

Don't they all grossly overcharge though?

11
OP
Sun Oct 17 15:13:35 2021 UTC
(0 children)

There's another trans surgeon, Dr Christine McGinn, who did this

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u/[deleted]
Thu Oct 7 16:55:56 2021 UTC
(38 children)

[deleted]

71
Thu Oct 7 22:18:42 2021 UTC
(12 children)

The sad thing is that PPV is actually a thing of the past. It was first performed in 1974 but was only used for intersex women for a long time. I feel like it should have been a standard of care for transgender women since at least the 90's when it is thought to have been "perfected" according to the literature.

A more pressing issue is coverage for FFS. I think most women who have had both GRS and FFS would state that FFS had a more profound impact on their daily life, even if GRS had a more profound impact on their dysphoria. It's simply criminal that this is considered elective for trans people by many organizations.

As far as WPATH goes, I think they mean well, but this is the cis-run clueless organization that used to want a year of "lived experience" prior to appropriate medical care. I feel like the only way to reform it is to create a rule that only transpeople can be President and by reserving 60% of the seats on their board for trans physicians.

35
Fri Oct 8 01:41:01 2021 UTC
(6 children)

bad news for you... Marci Bowers is president elect of WPATH. https://www.wpath.org/about/EC-BOD

21
Fri Oct 8 20:05:59 2021 UTC
(5 children)

Time for a recall.

41
Mon Oct 11 11:02:32 2021 UTC
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(4 children)

And Zucker, the apparent origin of a "most transgender children can be cured" fraud, he needs to be kicked off too.

20
Wed Dec 15 10:58:51 2021 UTC
(2 children)

The fuck? Zucker is on the board? Pedophile defender, diagnosing teens with “transvestic disorder” zucker?

16
Wed Dec 15 13:22:14 2021 UTC
(0 children)

Yes. "Science" advances primarily through funerals. Zucker's can't be too soon.

2
OP
Wed Dec 15 20:40:37 2021 UTC
(0 children)

There’s new ones to replace him. Look at the adolescent section and Laura Edwards-Leeper of the new WPATH SOC.

https://www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/comments/rf3ct4/please_give_feedback_on_the_new_wpath_standards/

11
u/52jag
Fri Oct 22 11:16:29 2021 UTC
(0 children)

Zucker is a disaster on many levels.

11
Tue Oct 12 23:03:49 2021 UTC
(1 child)

What are the best vaginoplasty methods and who performs them? I was scheduled with Bowers and am really fucked up by this information.

12
OP
Tue Oct 12 23:34:15 2021 UTC
(0 children)

The wiki here contains lots of info on surgeons and their results.

https://www.reddit.com/r/TransSurgeriesWiki/wiki/srs/usa#wiki_marci_bowers

5
Wed Oct 13 23:25:19 2021 UTC
(1 child)

The PPV of today is not the same as 1974 or even what was done in the early 2000's. Nowadays it's done laparoscopically and is used to extend the amount of depth from a PIV vaginoplasty.

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21
Thu Oct 7 18:21:31 2021 UTC
(3 children)

I mean.. I just paid €30.000 for FFS, and SRS is only €17.000 here... not to mention the €6000++ I've paid for electrolysis on hair removal. I acknowledge that for some people SRS is a super important surgery but for most of us, it's everything else that causes the most dysphoria and undoing male puberty is incredibly taxing AND usually paid out of pocket.

20
Thu Oct 7 19:19:22 2021 UTC
(0 children)

My face, body, voice, hair are a way bigger deal to me than down there! That’s not even in the same league for me 😕

5
Tue Oct 12 21:41:00 2021 UTC
(1 child)

I definitely want FFS cause of my face dysphoria, I decided to pursue bottom surgery because I work from home and my bottom dysphoria is sooooo bad right now.

2
Tue Apr 26 08:30:15 2022 UTC
(0 children)

Be carefull queen! It could get worse....I was out of work for 6 mo, and any "fun" I wanted to pursue when I was in the mood was off the table for 1.5 YEARS, on my worst days I regret it, on my best it is somthing freeing for ME but somthing I am self conscious about in front of others. I did it when I was 23 and I definetly would NOT reccomend it for anyone under 18

16
Thu Oct 7 19:52:39 2021 UTC
(11 children)

yes, i agree.

i'm older and i'm demiromantic/demisexual. i want SRS but the actual results aren't so important as i may *never use it*

so maybe no one ever sees my vagina... no one ever knows if its deep enough that Bowers would be proud of her work. But every day people see my face. And despite that laser has done miracles, its still apparent that i have facial hair shadow. people can notice the brow bone and other masculine features.

i've trained my voice well, but i get tired pretty easy. and i've had phlegm problems two months, so it seems like my muscle memory is getting hazy... i can have setbacks.

i was lucky with low T and probably intersex condition (if i demand tests then they'll pause my timeline for surgery, so i'm not talking to them about what i know, and they're too lazy to check despite obvious clues). but still, i wish i hadn't gone through that mild male puberty. i had a female puberty going on that i really didn't want interupted., ffs. i wish i could have taken blockers. and if that meant that Bowers did a 3 inch deep vag for me... should i really care?

/rant :)

13
Sun Oct 24 11:58:10 2021 UTC
(6 children)

The results of SRS are incredibly important even if no one sees it, dodgy surgeons can screw up your ability to pee properly for example.

3
Sun Oct 24 17:36:00 2021 UTC
(0 children)

well... for me depth may not be... how pretty the labia are and size... meh. it does matter that its done competantly to reduce likelihood of complications... and yes... not everyone has penetrative sex, but everyone pees... so that's important. :)

2
Thu Dec 16 05:33:22 2021 UTC
(4 children)

Oh please tell about pee complications, where can I read about? Posts here? I'm scared, 6 weeks post-op and having urination problems...

2
Thu Dec 16 15:53:22 2021 UTC
(2 children)

Look at the wiki, don't personally have experience with that.

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3
Sun Oct 10 01:03:53 2021 UTC
(0 children)

Similar issues for me being intersex. Not so much that stuff would've been paused for testing but I basically just got brushed off and told I was normal because I had XY chromosomes.

Fast forward until recently, it turns out I have PAIS. Which explains why I'm 5'2, 110lb, had a whole bunch of penile deformities (micropenis with hypospadias and penoscrotal transposition etc), totally half-assed facial hair, oh and probably it's why I identify as a straight woman as well.

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2
Tue Oct 12 21:38:53 2021 UTC
(0 children)

I definitely think PPV would be better but as someone with IBS I don’t know if it would qualify or would be at higher rates of complications. I would like to get PPV if all possible.

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58
u/amystoppls
Fri Oct 8 06:35:02 2021 UTC
(2 children)

I'm sorry but... WHAT? Did she really claim she doesn't support puberty blockers for THAT?

Ask any cis woman (or trans for that matter) if they'd go through a male puberty and take on all the effects, including permanent ones, that come with it, for the sake of a deeper vagina... Good luck finding someone who'd make that trade fully understanding what it means.

7
Fri Jan 28 02:32:05 2022 UTC
(0 children)

i thought she also said it was because the ability to orgasm was at risk though (dont know if thats true but she suggests it)

25
u/[deleted]
Fri Oct 22 15:20:13 2021 UTC
(1 child)

Marci is notorious for neglecting patients post-op who call too often or whom she finds “difficult” (read: having anxieties wholly appropriate to the situation), and has also been regressive and judgmental about trans patients who are gay and/or t4t. She’s very old school in that way and I’m not at all surprised she feels this way, although announcing it in 2021 is awfully bold and very unfortunate.

16
OP
Fri Oct 22 15:28:22 2021 UTC
(0 children)

I’m not surprised given the complaints I’ve seen.

18
u/Accomplished_Cow_116
Fri Oct 8 02:24:27 2021 UTC
(1 child)

Does it break my heart to say yes? Yes it does. But yes, I think she has become so. Or at least trans-harmful even if through inadvertence. If I were advising anyone on who to seek out not only for surgery but also support I would steer them elsewhere.

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16
u/fastpilot71
Mon Oct 11 11:25:03 2021 UTC
*
(3 children)

u/Bezexer

https://www.reddit.com/r/Transgender_Surgeries/comments/q3b5vx/comment/hg7ri38/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

and for the benefit of all and any.

"Clearly you don’t understand context." <-- The context is that puberty blockers have been in use for over 40 years worldwide, and for more the twenty for transgender youth.

"We are not discussing puberty blockers in general. " <-- I never said we were.

"We are discussing puberty blockers specifically for gender dysphoria in minors. So, no. They have not been widely used for transgender youth for two decades." <-- Nevertheless, they have that history of use.

"They were not the “preferred” treatment for minors with gender dysphoria until recently. " <-- That is a claim not in evidence, I have seen references to puberty blocker use for transgender youth for over 20 years.

" Dr Bowers is a surgeon seeing first hand the aftermath of puberty blockers intransgender patients for GRS." <-- This is the "aftermath": https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/137/3/e20153223

"I will not continue this discussion with you as you are out to fight, not to understand" <- I understand you want to have a point for free while being unable to defend it with facts.

Bowers botched Jazz Jennings without apparently being aware of how to approach the matter, and she's placing all transgender youth at risk of worse outcomes to cover for herself.

12
OP
Mon Oct 11 22:15:13 2021 UTC
(0 children)

I've banned Bezexer for the moment. New account and suspicious activity.

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105
u/caelric
Thu Oct 7 15:28:28 2021 UTC
(37 children)

World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH) sets the international standards all of us have to follow to get HRT and surgery, and it's the standards USA medical insurance uses.

Sidenote: I fucking hate WPATH and believe it leads to serious gatekeeping, and is why many of us seek our own methods.

42
Thu Oct 7 16:09:58 2021 UTC
(12 children)

I had a pretty severe mental episode the week following grs. The short of which I was thankful for going through all the hoops. It was a reminder of how much I needed it, and a good net for those that are still working it out and maybe going to hard to fast.

Pacing seems rough, but when you're bloody, swollen, and in crippling pain you start to doubt whether you really needed it. Anyone rushing into this could find themselves at the end of a very painful realization.

(Some medical professionals DO use it as a gate keeping tool however. Don't want to ignore that fact.)

41
Thu Oct 7 17:18:52 2021 UTC
(5 children)

Some Many medical professionals DO use it as a gate keeping tool however.

That is more accurate.

16
Fri Oct 8 04:06:34 2021 UTC
(0 children)

What is WPATH it if it's not specifically for gatekeeping? They set the criteria for medical transition care for most of the world, and everyone follows the WPATH standards. I'd call them the mother of all gatekeepers. I'm not suggesting it's not necessary in those respects, just clarifying.

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4
Thu Oct 7 19:46:29 2021 UTC
(4 children)

sorry that you had a hard time.

the one part of gatekeeping that i unfortunately think is perhaps inevitable, is when they make darn sure that you have someone to take care of you post-op. while some people post here about easier recoveries, it seems that for most (?) people, if they had no help or an ambivalent care-giver, things could have been really rough.

having someone at the hospital seems also sometimes to be almost essential.

that's kinda my weak point atm. i pretty much have zero people who i know who would help me during recovery. i didn't burn any bridges, but everyone else did for one reason or another. can't imagine coming home on day 5 or 6 to this empty apartment...

11
Sat Oct 9 19:57:43 2021 UTC
(2 children)

I spent a month in Thailand alone in an empty Hotel room. I was elated and never doubted my decision.

2
Sat Oct 9 21:40:07 2021 UTC
(1 child)

wow.. i'd have been scared to try it alone... thinking that i'd need help and really struggle without... glad that worked out for you :)

8
Sat Oct 9 23:18:51 2021 UTC
(0 children)

Thank you♡ I was left to my thoughts and did some writing in my journal and some meditation. What looked scary and intimidating, turned into a blessing. The Preecha Institute gave me great support by taking me to and from my appointments and to the grocery store as necessary. They were epic in every way and their help was always a phone call away. In retrospect I'd have had it no other way

4
Thu Oct 7 22:59:51 2021 UTC
(0 children)

I'm thankful I had my partner for my recovery. The thing is, I could not- 100% not have done it without her. Kudos to anyone that didn't have a challenging recovery, but I did. I am not even talking just physical help. She was essential to my mental health as well.

Having someone there seems like such a bother, but no one can predict your post op experience. It's an educated choice is all.

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12
Thu Oct 7 15:32:19 2021 UTC
(8 children)

That’s odd for me to hear because it’s lead to me being able to receive official treatment I may not have ever been able to get in the past.

15
Thu Oct 7 15:33:25 2021 UTC
(7 children)

It works for some people, if they check all the right boxes and are fortunate enough to get accepting doctors and the right insurance (in the US).

If you don't have the above, you have to go other routes to get timely and appropriate care.

5
Thu Oct 7 15:36:00 2021 UTC
(6 children)

That doesn’t jive with my experience either. Non binary, Medicaid, and rural ky here.

16
Thu Oct 7 15:38:38 2021 UTC
(5 children)

Okay. I'm glad it all worked out for you.

If it wasn't a problem, there would be no need for Informed Consent by Planned Parenthood, or other means to get HRT outside of WPATH.

8
Thu Oct 7 22:15:31 2021 UTC
(3 children)

I am not sure how up-to-date you are but informed consent has been heavily encouraged by WPATH since 2012.

If a provider isn't offering informed consent, they are the ones outside of WPATH specs or are doing transgender HRT as a side hustle to their regular practice. I remember the swap over from 3 months of therapy minimum, plus identity persistence, the 200+ question test plus a therapist signing off you fit all the stereotypes.

10
Thu Oct 7 22:47:33 2021 UTC
(2 children)

Yeah, some (many) doctors say they do 'informed consent', but they put gates and roadblocks. Real IC is what planned parenthood does: they ask you if you know what the effects of HRT are, and then they give you a prescription for HRT that very day.

That's not what most doctors do, outside of Planned Parenthood.

That's why trans folks are still desperate for HRT, and that's why PP as well as places like Folx and such do such a great business.

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8
Thu Oct 7 23:57:45 2021 UTC
(4 children)

I get your annoyance, but WPATH is a political organization. Like any political body, they have their own goals and interests independent from ours.

It's not like detransitioners come from nowhere. It's not like the SRS regret rate is 0% (although it's low, somewhere around 2% iirc). If WPATH doesn't find a way to mitigate these occurrences, then there will be backlash against trans healthcare as a whole.

I'm not a huge fan of them either, but they're literally the bulwark between trans people and anti-trans legislators.

11
Mon Oct 11 11:01:57 2021 UTC
(1 child)

" If WPATH doesn't find a way to mitigate these occurrences, then there will be backlash against trans healthcare as a whole." <-- Why? That is one of the lowest error rates in all of "elective" medicine.

8
Thu Nov 4 05:35:01 2021 UTC
(0 children)

You know how transphobes are. One (1) cis person getting a single minor transition procedure and regretting it/detransitioning is sufficient reason in their view to deny healthcare to the lot of us. One cis person having gender dysphoria is worth a hundred thousand trans people not having gender dysphoria to them.

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2
Thu Oct 7 17:12:44 2021 UTC
(0 children)

Absolutely

3
Thu Oct 7 16:51:35 2021 UTC
(0 children)

💯%.

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u/its_shivers
Mon Oct 18 14:46:26 2021 UTC
(7 children)

Is this a surprise? She's done gatekeepy stuff for ages. She got hers and now she doesn't care.

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u/Neither_Act_1007
Sat Jan 22 23:48:49 2022 UTC
(0 children)

Yes she is. I went to a conference where she gave speech and said that earliest examplea of trans people are eunuchs. It was southern comfort back in 2016. My jaw dropped. Jazz's mum was there too as I guest speaker.

10
u/[deleted]
Fri Oct 15 02:36:12 2021 UTC
(3 children)

Shoot I almost put down a $1000 down payment on her last week…

6
Mon Jan 17 19:38:16 2022 UTC
(2 children)

I remember I called her office once and they said to give them a grand right away. Totally put me off. Like they wanted 1000 before even seeing me.

6
Mon Jan 17 19:53:47 2022 UTC
(1 child)

Yup exact same experience. At this point, I think i’m just going to take out a personal loan and go to the Suporn clinic

6
Fri May 13 16:51:52 2022 UTC
(0 children)

I went to suporn, no regrets at all. If SRS is something you care a lot abt for your transition i would recommend them a lot

9
u/TransSuperWoman
Sun Feb 13 07:23:13 2022 UTC
*
(1 child)

I’m pretty sure that Marci Bowers, a literal transgender woman who has literally helped thousands of trans women transition, is not transphobic. Like, at what point does that word just become completely meaningless?

It IS super concerning if someone spontaneously develops gender dysphoria at like 15 with no prior indication of gender non-conformity. You know how old I was when I first became aware of wanting to be female? Four or five. And adults around me noticed things even earlier than that.

My experience is very typical of trans people who grew up before the emergence of social media, which makes sense; being trans is neurological, and neurology is something you’re born with.

If not letting adolescents make life-altering choices without serious discernment and reflection is transphobic then I guess most people outside of online trans spaces must be transphobes.

8
Wed Aug 17 20:32:43 2022 UTC
(0 children)

But there is a LONG road between developing/recognizing gender dysphoria and getting hormones, surgery, etc. and many people involved. People who suggest that GNC kids are quickly being shoved through instant transition are peddling disinformation and myths. BTW my gender dysphoria didn’t consciously start manifesting until I was about 19-20 and I didn’t even think about transitioning until I was 39. Not all Trans people have the same journey/path to transitioning and some don’t recognize it until later for various reasons.

45
u/Amelia_the_Mouse
Thu Oct 7 15:29:46 2021 UTC
(7 children)

I don't think doing an interview with Shrier was a great idea given the drum that she wants to beat, but what Bowers said about puberty blockers is pretty standard talk for a doctor wondering if treatment is appropriate. Her comments were with regards to her worrying that the outcomes for surgery are worse if the patient has used them. The ROGD stuff is a bit more troubling. Is there someone out there who's bandwagoning? Probably, but giving it traction is probably a more harm than good thing especially with someone like Shrier pushing it and can you say that this would be any different for any other diagnosis? There will be Munchhausen's out there who want to have something for the attention, that is not unique to GD and even the way she couched it, Shrier will blow it up to "Prominent transgender surgeon says you're all faking it!". And based on the headline, it's obvious that Shrier has zero interest in "getting the debate right" as she claims.

19
Fri Oct 8 20:08:20 2021 UTC
(0 children)

what Bowers said about puberty blockers is pretty standard talk for a doctor wondering if treatment is appropriate

And most doctors have no idea what they are talking about when it comes to blockers, neither does Bowers. She's a surgeon, not an endo.

18
Thu Oct 7 16:55:22 2021 UTC
(3 children)

Yeah, I agree with this take. Also I think it's important to distinguish real medical concerns from the transphobes who spin those arguments to fit thier narrative. Based on the quotes OP posted I don't really see any issues with what Bowers said but do wish she did due diligence with whom she was talking to, if I have any issue with her is that she didn't check who was doing the interview.

That being said, transphobes are always going to find some out of context or fringe doctor to support thier views, so I am not sure how much blame for Bowers is warranted.

22
Tue Oct 12 05:27:01 2021 UTC
(1 child)

The problem is Bowers' concerns about surgical results after blockers are unfounded because of the existence of PPV.

The reality is:

  1. Bowers is not an endo
  2. She f*cked up Jazz Jennings' surgery and doesn't want admit it was her fault and that there is other technology out there that completely mitigates the difficulty Jazz had. Not to mention Jazz is still happier with her bad result as opposed to not ever going on blockers and being a boy.
7
Tue Oct 12 12:24:07 2021 UTC
*
(0 children)

I mean, we are welcome to belive that, but she is also welcome to belive what she believes based on her experience. It doesn't automatically make her comment transphobic even if its misguided or stright wrong. It seems like she might have a medical opinion, but its not necessarily because she does not want to give people the best care possible or thinks trans people are somehow lesser. At least that is how I read it.

13
Fri Oct 8 20:11:25 2021 UTC
*
(0 children)

"I don't really see any issues with what Bowers said"

I do! She's apparently unaware difficulties reaching orgasm are (A) common to cis females with about at a 1 in 9 occurrence rate, they never claim to have one at all, and (B) unwaware it's no problem at all for FtM more than cis males which isn't often) and for MtF a low dose T gel produces no systemic masculinization and make orgasms easy if troubles are had (to the extent they are easy for cis females).

There's some obvious need for continuing education for Bowers in what she said.

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u/fastpilot71
Mon Oct 11 13:19:29 2021 UTC
(0 children)

More @ u/Bezexer https://www.reddit.com/r/Transgender_Surgeries/comments/q3b5vx/comment/hg701if/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

"No. She isn’t transphobic. She just has an opinion people don’t want to hear." <-- There are facts which directly contradict her opinion which all here should know of, apparently you don't want people here to hear them -- since you've blocked my replies.

"This quote in the article is indicative of how toxic the far left portion of the trans movement is becoming" <-- Facts exist without being on the Left or Right, and I am certainly no one on the Left.

“But subjecting patients to a course of serious interventions that cannot be scrutinized — even by experts — without one risking being tarred as anti-trans seems unlikely to be in anyone’s best interest.” <-- Who has said they should not be scrutinized? It is an apparent fact they have already been scrutinized, and Bowers didn't know it.

"Medical professionals take an oath to do no harm." <-- And your false imputation is that Bowers is upholding her oath with her interview.

"I think the longer “affirming” care goes on, the higher detransition & poor surgical rates will become." <-- I know you have no basis for your opinion. I know facts that contradict that opinion.

https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/137/3/e20153223

"Transgender children showed no elevations in depression and slightly elevated anxiety relative to population averages. They did not differ from the control groups on depression symptoms and had only marginally higher anxiety symptoms."

The control group was cisgender. That is what affirmative care produces.

"It appears some people haven’t even read the full article. The reason surgeons are starting to denounce puberty blockers is because gender affirming surgeries utilize most of the natal genitalia for the best results. The vagina was too shallow, so she had to use the stomach. That had poor results. Jazz never developed mature erotic sensation, and now she may never will." <-- None of which has relevance when the application of a low dose T cream apparently resolves that issue entirely in most cases without systemic virilization, and when for any reason there is not enough surface tissue for the procedure, the better approach than a skin graft is peritoneum. It was Bowers' unexplained choice to use a surface skin graft.

"People having opinions you don’t like doesn’t mean they are evil." <- What about people who want to stay deliberately ignorant of facts? For example people who block replies they don't want to hear?

"Dr Bowers clearly respects trans individuals. She is expressing her professional opinion after her experiences." <-- And she is revealing she needs a bit of continuing education in her experience, and in my opinion that she is willing to hurt transgender youth for the sake of covering for her mistakes.

"We have got to stop taking everything so personally and stop vilifying people with different perspectives." <-- So a "perspective" not founded in reality must not be shown to be so? Even when it has the potential to hurts millions desperately?

8
u/blueskies-snowytrees
Sun Nov 14 23:57:30 2021 UTC
(3 children)

Not sure when it was posted, but this is her response letter. I hadn't seen it on this thread, so I thought I'd add it to the discussion.

https://marcibowers.com/transfem/dear-colleagues-clients-and-friends/

3
Thu Nov 25 04:13:31 2021 UTC
(0 children)

“If you can possibly stand a bit of puberty, the extra genital skin growth, likely orgasm and potential fertility may be attractive enough to consider the option. Early post-pubertal kids in their early teens still transition extremely well”….. Is she really saying for trans kids to undergo immense dysphoria because her antiquated methods and techniques can’t serve them while other surgeons do a great job with minimal tissue? LMFAOOO.

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u/leann-crimes
Wed Dec 15 01:46:10 2021 UTC
(0 children)

i think shes massively selfish

8
u/Taylah_Franklin
Wed Dec 15 19:57:21 2021 UTC
(1 child)

"granting an interview to an anti-trans activist is incredibly damaging. No good can possibly come of it"

I disagree with this entirely. We should talk to individuals with opposing viewpoints so we can try and learn from each other and come to a healthy & peaceful understanding. Just my opinion!

3
Wed Aug 17 20:34:41 2022 UTC
(0 children)

Has it worked out for us yet though?🤷🏻‍♀️

9
u/Luvy-Dovey
Wed Feb 16 05:12:36 2022 UTC
(4 children)

Well, she is a transwoman herself. Oh no, she has opinions which some members don't like how horrible. Isn't this thinking like we condemn CISHETs for?

2
Thu Apr 21 11:03:53 2022 UTC
(3 children)

Exactly, same reasons why people hate Blaire, same reasons why I’ve been asked to remove myself from lgbt spaces. Because you either follow the entire narrative or begone. It’s sad. Belong to a community, but have a different mindset = ostracized by others. Only recourse is to smile and keep your mouth shut, or say what you want and don’t associate with them. Crazy girl

7
Thu Apr 28 14:05:55 2022 UTC
(2 children)

If someone is harming trans people they need to be removed so they don't harm more trans people. No idea what your deal is and I haven't looked into what's going on with Bowers but Blair is a straight up fascist and she'd be a menace regardless of whether she was trans or not. Getting rid of someone like her is just a matter of keeping yourself safe. So yeah...

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u/jadediaz2008
Thu Oct 7 17:04:32 2021 UTC
(0 children)

I read the article and it seemed like standard doctor talk about whether a particular protocol or set of procedures was medically effective. I didn't see a big bomb drop anywhere in the words. Of course much hay will be made by The Usual Suspects anyway to stigmatize and delegitimize all trans people no matter what they may feel about their own individual circumstances.

u/[deleted]
Thu Oct 7 21:32:25 2021 UTC
(2 children)

[deleted]

16
Fri Oct 8 20:15:46 2021 UTC
(1 child)

BS like that is ridiculous.

8
u/Jamira360
Fri Oct 29 22:26:13 2021 UTC
(2 children)

This honestly so troubling to hear. I feel for the trans youth who are under assault. Also if you’re a surgeon (who’s credible) and not knowledgeable on how to perform a surgery, why do it in the first place?

Did Marci & Erica even quote any articles supporting their claims? Or is it just more anecdotal stories to fit anti trans narratives?

I also can’t help but wonder at the possibility of jealousy (that I’ve certainly encountered) from some older trans ppl who project their bitterness at not being able to transition earlier in life onto current trans youth.

Not only do we need to be focusing on maintaining the White House & congress in America, we need to expand our numbers at state and local government. Science should be able to do the talking on this matter, not non specialist evangelicals.

8
OP
Fri Oct 29 23:04:23 2021 UTC
(1 child)

Regardless of the merits of their views (none) its extremely irresponsible of them to talk to anti-trans activists and it will have lasting consequences on all of us. It's hard to imagine someone like that being the next president of WPATH and the disasters that could follow. I thought Caitlyn Jenner was bad , but she's an amateur.

8
Fri Oct 29 23:06:44 2021 UTC
(0 children)

Caitlyn isn’t taken seriously by anyone. These two know their words would carry weight and be swept up by conservative media and actively used to harm our youth (and possibly the community as a whole). I hope the president’s of WPATH don’t have long tenures.

Thanks for posting this Hidden. It’s really important to get the word out.

27
u/[deleted]
Thu Oct 7 22:21:17 2021 UTC
(2 children)

The fact that she gave A. Shrier the time of day suggests at a bare minimum subconscious transphobia. Trans-accepting people don't give TERFs interviews to quotemine. I think Dr. Bowers was probably traumatized by the J. Jennings spotlight on four revisions and needs therapy to deal with that. I don't think she's fit to head WPATH given her comments in the interview.

19
Fri Oct 8 20:15:02 2021 UTC
(0 children)

Bowers did screw up with Jazz Jennings.

​

No reaction to that excuses this interview.

11
Mon Oct 11 14:06:30 2021 UTC
(0 children)

I don't think she's fit to head WPATH given her comments in the interview.

I must add I agree with that entirely.

5
u/PatrickTheOne311
Wed Nov 10 07:31:33 2021 UTC
(0 children)

I can’t stand her, what she does or her extremist views and self-hatred because that’s what it is in the end.

5
u/Plenty-Log6688
Sun Nov 14 06:03:55 2021 UTC
(0 children)

not at all, I know her very well

5
u/leann-crimes
Thu Jun 2 02:16:31 2022 UTC
(0 children)

she's definitely a quisling for the TERF crowd and therefore entirely untrustworthy, though her big fuss seemed initially to be based on personal reasons as the more trans teens getting colon or ppt vaginoplasty eats into her business bc she doesnt do those if i hear correctly

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u/chrysalislovestuna
Thu Oct 7 15:29:21 2021 UTC
(0 children)

She should really step down from doing surgery. Her methods are becoming dated and just because she can’t performs srs on a trans woman who was on puberty blockers doesn’t mean other surgeons can’t. Tons of surgeons have successfully done srs on women with insufficient growth.

Also her recent reviews have been bad. So she apparently can’t do work on women with sufficient tissue either.

6
u/symbolizsm
Sat Jun 4 13:21:53 2022 UTC
*
(0 children)

She appeared in Matt Walsh's documentary "What is a Woman," and her attitude isn't good.

6
u/caelric
Tue Jun 21 14:46:17 2022 UTC
(0 children)

I can't believe people are still defending Bowers. Whatever she was in the past, she has become a straight up TERF, and is actively harming the trans community.

5
u/Guilty-Priority-3922
Sun Nov 7 18:03:03 2021 UTC
(0 children)

This has to be a joke

4
u/Fuzzy-Cut9359
Mon Mar 28 09:47:47 2022 UTC
(0 children)

Marci is a dignified lady and a professional surgeon and a gynaecologist.

4
u/Psychology-Pure
Wed Apr 27 17:48:14 2022 UTC
(0 children)

I HATE WPATH I HATE WPATH I HATE WPATH I HATE WPATH I HATE WPATH I HATE WPATH I HATE WPATH I HATE WPATH

4
u/Safe_Hands
Mon Aug 1 06:58:55 2022 UTC
(0 children)

i don't see how she is transphobic, she is just acting like a normal boomer who is skeptical of new things

3
u/FrecklesMcPaws
Mon Aug 8 18:14:57 2022 UTC
(6 children)

I’ve met Dr. Bowers. She is not transphobic and I would trust a surgeon’s judgement on how difficult a surgery is or isn’t - especially one who has literally done hundreds if not thousands of this specific surgery.

Her concerns are legitimate - most of you aren’t aware that when she’s taking peritoneum or tunica vaginalis we are talking about MILLIMETERS of available tissue that is EXTREMELY delicate, even in a person who never had any puberty blockers. If you want full-depth vaginoplasty and you want a depth comparable to a cis-vagina, tunica vaginalis and/or peritoneum WILL not add much, like may 1/2” to 3/4” of an inch y’all! As well, every stitch is another weak point during the healing process - if she is stitching together three different tissues (scrotal, tunica vaginalis, and peritoneum) that means there is an increase in the number of potential complications during healing.

It’s important to remember too that those are tissues that can ONLY be used internally - you can’t use those tissues for things like outer or inner labia, they’re too fragile. The biggest reason for a desire to increase available scrotal tissue is to ensure there is enough material for the vulva.

How do I know this? My fiancée regularly works with Dr Bowers in the OR - she knows first hand just how difficult and delicate of a procedure this is, and just how much effort and hard work Marci puts into each and every patient.

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u/SixGunsLoaded
Sat Jan 1 00:42:51 2022 UTC
(0 children)

Just because someone doesn’t agree with every single idea and ideology floating around the trans community doesn’t mean they are transphobic.

7
u/subbaga93
Thu Apr 21 05:27:31 2022 UTC
(0 children)

She refused to treat me. She said she doesn't do "my kind of surgery"...which was a mtf bottom surgery. But I'm nonbinary. Mayne she doesn't believe we exist.

3
u/lacking-inspiration
Sat Jan 22 20:54:10 2022 UTC
(0 children)

She’s no different to any other plastic surgeon, it’s a business she is profiting from

3
u/jackiewill1000
Wed Mar 2 05:25:21 2022 UTC
(0 children)

no.

3
u/eavalos15
Fri Mar 18 19:09:36 2022 UTC
(0 children)

Marci bowers was posted a response for this on her page. Just for folks that jump to the comments.

3
u/Psychology-Pure
Sat Jun 11 11:15:07 2022 UTC
(0 children)

I saw Marci bowers on the film "what is a woman"s trailer. The fucking trailer. Wtf. Wonder how that happened. And if she doesn't know I feel so bad. I think people are wrong in shaming her. Idk.

3
u/[deleted]
Wed Aug 31 01:49:48 2022 UTC
(0 children)

Short answer: Yes

Long answer: Yes, obviously, she's siding with transphobes who aren't even in the medical field!

4
u/TimeStaysWeGo
Thu Oct 7 22:53:14 2021 UTC
(0 children)

What a weird PR rake to step on.

12
u/IncognitoGirl81
Thu Oct 7 15:26:10 2021 UTC
(9 children)

Marci bowers being anti trans would be so self destructive to both herself and her career.

I'm not reading the article, but of the tweets I saw she seems to speak from a clinical sense. My memory is fuzzy, but she did work on Jazz, right? She would be the person to know best about the difficulties presented in that procedure. She basically reserves the PPT method for people with no elasticity/material- I would imagine in part because of how hard it is to work with material available with transgender people on puberty blockers.

The reason why you might talk to someone on the opposite side is the chance you open some eyes. The magazine author is going to write what they write. You just gotta hope that the few people looking for answers find something among the hate.

To summarise, no, she is likely no anti trans. She probably has some hard opinions based on her medical experience about the trans experience, but she also has first hand experience being as trans herself and issuing trans care.

14
Tue Oct 12 05:36:26 2021 UTC
(1 child)

It's obvious she's trying to cover her own ass though.

We have solutions for the surgical problems that come up as a result of blockers. PPT being one of them and testosterone cream being the other.

Bowers has been slipping lately on her surgical results because she's aging out and her methods are outdated.

She and Ting both have had issues and both botched her. Bowers knows that admitting this was her fault would hurt her ego.

Not to mention Bowers is not an endo anyways. Talking about this is out of her speciality, unless she's seen hundreds of trans kids I've not heard of yet.

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9
Fri Oct 8 20:13:45 2021 UTC
*
(0 children)

I'm not reading the article, but of the tweets I saw she seems to speak from a clinical sense.

She's speaking clinically without good sense.

I've seen more than one old T-gal speaking from apparent envy of those young who have it "easier". EDIT I do not think that is what is going on with Dr. Bowers.

11
Thu Oct 7 15:51:55 2021 UTC
(3 children)

Bowers and Ting's egos got in the way with Jazz's surgery. Should have referred Jazz to Dr. Stiller for sigmoid colon vaginoplasty.

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Thu Oct 7 16:27:44 2021 UTC
(1 child)

Jazz didn’t want the colon method. She should have been referred to Dr. bluebond Langner and Dr. Zhao

10
u/52jag
Sat Oct 9 08:40:13 2021 UTC
(0 children)

Or Dr. Suporn

10
Mon Oct 11 04:15:44 2021 UTC
(0 children)

Colonic vaginoplasty creates an anastomosis of the colon and a new vaginal canal. If the colon connection breaks down you now have a patient in septic shock with an intra-abdominal catastrophe. This should never be a first line therapy. There are ways to raise flaps and techniques to give sufficient depth without doing this and without having someone delay GnRH blockade.

9
Fri Oct 8 04:25:26 2021 UTC
(0 children)

I agree with your sentiment here. She's an extremely skilled surgeon who's also trans. You just can't discount her depth of experience and leadership in providing both Trans-healthcare and training for other GRS surgeons over the two decades. I can't even imagine the array of patients and outcomes she's faced. It would be difficult to find someone to match her on that level.

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u/Goddess_of_Absurdity
Fri Oct 8 01:36:12 2021 UTC
*
(11 children)

Love that this was reposted to transgender_surgeries 😒 For those that didn't read the article, its a sensationalist piece that misconstrues almost every single quote given to the writer/interviewer. Here is my repost from yesterday. You probably won't read this either.

making any judgement based on this article isn't going to get you anywhere positive or practical.

Dr. Bowers speaks from the objective standpoint of a Gynecologist and surgeon. She speaks mainly about worries concerning GRS in this article and the difficulties that shes witnessed. She centers her talk on puberty blockers when it comes to tissue availability, sexual function and intimacy

Dr. Bowers explains that it's not her recommendation to start blockers so early (at the very beginning of puberty) but never downright refuses it.

The article even shoots itself in the foot by directly quoting a doctor pointing out the only known negative being slightly lower than average bone density. Everything after that is pure writer conjecture.

As for ROGD, Dr. Bowers doesnt acknowledge it either as an actual diagnosis, instead pointing out that comorbid mental health disorders should be ruled out first which is the stance WPATH takes.

Dr. Marci Bowers is committed to women's health and has been performing GRS for years and as a trans woman herself, strives for the best for her patients.

Please keep away from sensationalism and learn to recognize when a heavily opinionated article is attempting to steer you towards biased thinking.

15
OP
Fri Oct 8 01:52:42 2021 UTC
(2 children)

I think you've misunderstood what this is about.

1
Fri Oct 8 01:59:18 2021 UTC
(1 child)

You'd be correct. But ill keep my repost up for anyone who also skips the brunt of the post 😐

12
OP
Fri Oct 8 04:41:08 2021 UTC
(0 children)

Do this google search for "Dr Marci Bowers" in the last week and see what she's stirred up.

https://www.google.com/search?q=dr+marci+bowers&tbs=qdr:w

And here in Australia its turned up in a major Australian anti-trans newspaper that's been waging a war against trans children over the last few years. Bowers has just given them all a ton of new ammunition.

10
Tue Oct 12 05:42:20 2021 UTC
(2 children)

The problem is her initial conjecture about not recommending blockers due to surgical results is due to her own ego preservation.

She famously botched Jazz and wants to blame it on anything else but her own techniques. She's been getting poor reviews recently and has been slipping because her techniques are starting to become outdated.

We have solutions to the tissue availability problem (PPT) and the arousal problem (topical testosterone cream). She, like many older physicians, is not innovative enough to try and advance her craft in this respect though.

She could have simply referred Jazz to another expert or pulled out the literature on PPT as its been done since the 70s. Just because she's an expert herself doesn't mean she doesn't have an obvious conflict of interest when speaking about this matter.

Not to mention she's making this conclusion as someone who's not an endo and hasn't done many procedures on trans youth...

6
Tue Oct 12 06:22:42 2021 UTC
(1 child)

This all is reductive at best. She did have PPT with Dr. Bowers and had a revision with Dr. Ting.

https://www.womenshealthmag.com/health/a30631270/jazz-jennings-surgery-complications/

Both doctors speak of the difficulties encountered with her case in this article.

Dr. Bowers speaks from experience as a surgeon and doesn't claim to speak from any other position. She speaks against blockers before the age of 11 (after the very initial stages of puberty.)

4
Tue Oct 12 13:36:04 2021 UTC
(0 children)

She speaks against blockers before the age of 11 (after the very initial stages of puberty.)

And not merely is not clear that opinion is justified, the preponderance of evidence goes the other way.

4
Mon Oct 11 14:04:22 2021 UTC
(2 children)

The article even shoots itself in the foot by directly quoting a doctor pointing out the only known negative being slightly lower than average bone density.

And that is not in fact the case. The idea was supported by I think 1 study which compared youth still undergoing puberty, some of whom had been on blockers for the purpose of delaying puberty to those who had not. The valid way to do it would be to compare those who had been on blockers for the purpose of delaying puberty to those who had not but only after puberty had thoroughly concluded for both groups. That to my knowledge has not been done.

6
Tue Oct 12 05:44:41 2021 UTC
(1 child)

Not to mention reduced bone density is a justifiable tradeoff of the treatment if that's the case. Medicine is about triage, and everyone makes tradeoffs when undergoing any medical procedure or treatment.

Every medical treatment in existence has a downside, and its interesting that the downsides are only harped on when it comes to specifically trans healthcare, when ironically trans healthcare is one of the few medical fields that demonstrates high rates of positive outcomes.

3
Tue Oct 12 12:01:02 2021 UTC
(0 children)

There is even any known reduced bone density in post pubertal people as differenced by their having been on puberty blockers for any particular time. The research solely compared people at a much later stage of puberty to people at an earlier one.

"Every medical treatment in existence has a downside" <-- Many have very, very mild, even as yet statistically unnoticeable ones. Puberty blockers appear to be in that rare latter category.

" its interesting that the downsides are only harped on when it comes to specifically trans healthcare, when ironically trans healthcare is one of the few medical field that demonstrates high rates of positive outcomes."

So very much a point I try to emphasize.

I doubt I'll ever see any reference to any work even purporting to prove there is any substantial failure rate of topical testosterone to drastically improve sexual response in undeveloped MtF transgender youth -- as this Redditor claimed was relevant https://www.reddit.com/r/Transgender_Surgeries/comments/q3b5vx/comment/hga0e9l/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

Even if it were true, with respect to Bowers complaints there is no evidence it was even tried in the case she talks about.

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OP
Wed Oct 13 04:09:43 2021 UTC
(0 children)

Fyi

13 October 2021 - Joint Letter from USPATH and WPATH

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u/[deleted]
Sat Apr 9 05:10:39 2022 UTC
*
(0 children)

What a ridiculous question and bullshit hit piece. Seems like your trolling trying to create more drama where there should be none. I mean seriously, who’s next in this unending line of transphobic witch hunts? So what, she talked to transphobic people and they are quoting her. Transphobic people with agendas will turn everything anyone says into a negative story if they can and just because they can - we can’t speak, or have opinions? Who are you helping with this? Not trans people. What purpose does this achieve? Sure are making this get even more air time. You are digging a pit for your neighbor and demanding purity to an ideology that not all trans people share. It’s crap like this, that demands every trans person should be ideological and political clones that fuel the dumpster fire our community has become in the eyes of the world. For once can’t we stand together instead of look to score virtue signal points. Nothing she said is transphobic. Not even close. Our time would be better spent engaged in building each other, and our community up, instead of tearing each other down.

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u/Independent_Visual99
Tue Dec 7 02:57:42 2021 UTC
(0 children)

I wouldn’t criticize her for this. I would criticize her on the lack of advancements. Even though I think her answer will be interesting. I would say saying this without the research behind it could be viewed as revolutionary for r/transinSTEM .

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u/Love_and_Squal0r
Fri Sep 9 12:11:38 2022 UTC
(0 children)

I go to my surgeon for their competence as surgeons, not their political or social beliefs.

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u/BeingElla
Thu May 4 19:18:40 2023 UTC
(0 children)

Look at WPATH v8 - shes doesn’t line up against it. I think she is misinformed and out of date and unfortunately is in a position of power. Her ideology undermines the decisions between people, especially young people, and their caregivers. It’s rubbish

u/[deleted]
Thu Oct 7 16:19:08 2021 UTC
(5 children)

[deleted]

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OP
Thu Oct 7 16:21:31 2021 UTC
(4 children)

Unfortunately, some may try to use that for their own agendas.

Predictably, even guaranteed, to do so. Why would anyone help them?

There's ways to handle it if it's a legitimate concern, and this is not one of them.

Thu Oct 7 16:28:05 2021 UTC
(2 children)

[deleted]

9
Thu Oct 7 17:48:18 2021 UTC
(0 children)

That isn’t an issue with newer techniques like the peritoneal graft method. More surgeons are using it these days and the results are better than the old inversion/skin graft method.

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OP
Thu Oct 7 16:52:07 2021 UTC
(0 children)

I don't want to discuss it here, but be very careful choosing your surgeon and look for a track record of getting results. Don't just take their word for it. It is quite achievable.

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u/LovelyEllieInBloom
Fri Apr 22 16:25:16 2022 UTC
(0 children)

Why do girls keep going to see this madwoman is beyond me

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u/52jag
Sat Oct 9 08:49:32 2021 UTC
(0 children)

I don’t think Bowers is transphobic. She did show bad judgement by granting an interview to this Shrier. There is no sense in giving people like Shrier the time of day or treating them like credible journalists.

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u/wolvine9
Thu Oct 7 17:42:53 2021 UTC
(10 children)

I disagree.

I think the main issue we have here is that she's expressing her scientific opinion on blockers, not necessarily whether or not people are trans. She's decidedly pro-transition and pro-trans people, it's just a question of how she feels about the course of treatment and how it affects the viability of surgery down the road. It's a perfectly logical argument imo - and it doesn't necessarily mean that her scientific opinion on how medical transition should proceed makes her transphobic. She just doesn't agree with present practices for managing transition.

12
Fri Oct 8 20:25:49 2021 UTC
(9 children)

~she's expressing her unscientific opinion on blockers~

FIFY

""She just doesn't agree with present practices for managing transition." <-- She diagrees with current best practices producing this happy situation:

https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/137/3/e20153223

She's no endo or therapist and should not pretend she is.

3
Fri Oct 8 21:54:01 2021 UTC
(1 child)

There's a difference between having a scientific opinion and having a scientific argument. She's allowed to have the former, the latter requires rigor and your article supports it.

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